There was an incipient discussion of free will over on Vatican: It's OK for Catholics to Believe in Aliens which it would be a shame to let die (but also a shame to let it hijack that thread). So, what're people's thoughts on the notion of "free will"?

I'm ambivalent.

Right now, the most pressing problem I have with it is with the way free will debates are framed nowadays. What I see often is that the distinction is made between determinism/fatalism and free will, and the discussion progresses as though either people are deterministic or they have free will. I think this may be a false dichotomy. For starters, I have yet to see a definition of free will at all (let alone one that would preclude determinism). The assumption seems to be that a person with free will would not have a predictable decision-making process.

But everything I know about people leads me to conclude that people are depressingly predictable. People manipulate one another all the time, and what's manipulation if it isn't taking a person's current state and working out how to arrive at a chosen final state (final relative to the duration of the manipulation)?

The way I see it, people are deterministic, and any theory of "free will" will have to also be deterministic.

And a final disclaimer, the above articulation of my opinion is a first-run articulation and does not communicate well what I want to communicate (though I certify it communicates my general idea). As I refine exactly what I want to articulate, it may well change significantly and not end up looking much like the above at all. Sorry, but it is what it is.

I agree, I think it is a false dichotomy.

Well it's dichotomous in the strictest sense that one can either believe you have the option to make decisions in life, or you can believe that everything is pre-scripted, so that even your perceived decisions are pre-scripted. But I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who really believes the latter. If you stray one iota from that type of strict view of it, then the concept of dichotomy seems to go out the world.

It reminds me of a quote from a Tom Robbins book I liked long ago ... "There are two kinds of people in this world - those who divide people in to two types and those who don't".

As far as theology goes, I see no dichotomy. If one believes God exists outside the limits and dimensions of creation, than it is not a stretch to say free will is part of the script - God is not limited to time in the same linear way we are so.....

But issues like this, I don't take a stand on. I don't think its important for me to understand it, much less have a position on it - unless I'm seeking a doctorate in theology or something. Which I am not.

How about Dr.str.sht. Rasczak? ;P

I don't get it.

doctor stirrer of shit Rasczak

Hmmmm. No phd here. And besides, I haven't been stirring the shit much lately, not in this thread anyway.

I should change my title. Ideas?

fellatio girl

Hmmmmmmm...... Doesn't sound very catch. Why don't you try it for a year or so, and if you get lots of comments about how cool it is, then I'll start using it.

Shit has been stirred.

How about something that makes a statement in itself, beyond being self-descriptive. Something provocative. I mean, for example, instead of stirrer of shit, use the title to actually do some stirring for you.

(Just FYI - mine didnt get much effort from me, but I got tired of leaving it as the default, so made it something hopefully vaguely cryptic, wondering if anyone would even ask what it is supposed to mean - nobody ever has)

So what does it mean to say that I made a decision, and how is that statement incompatible with the notion of being myself being determinate?

I don't get the question, sorry. Perhaps you can rephrase.

Everything in life is a decision. The 'strict dichotomous' concept I mentioned (that nobody I know of actually claims to be the case) would simply say that while you 'make those decisions', that is a kind of illusion, because history is actually predetermined in every detail. I don't think there can be any real defence against that (purely theoretical) argument, due to its nature. Now either that concept is true or it isn't, making it a dichotomy.

Anything outside that strict sense is not a dichotomy to my mind.

I guess I'm confused as to how making a decision is incompatible with determinism. The way I see it, a decision is just the selection of one or more of multiple choices, but no implication that the selection process is indeterminate.

I mean, if I'm given a choice between say, eating a pint of ice cream and eating a carrot, and it's a known fact that I've been feeling particularly self-conscious about my weight lately, predicting my decision won't be too hard, will it?

To me, that implies that I'm deterministic. Given a choice and a relevant prior input (that I'm self-conscious about my weight), my eventual choice will be easily predictable. I have no desire to ingest a bunch of fat and sugar, exacerbating a self-image problem, so of course I'm going to select a carrot. I've still made a decision, but I've done so in a way that's entirely deterministic.

By putting free will at odds with determinism, it implies that a thing with free will would not have a deterministic/predictable decision-making process. Which leads me to wonder: is my will not free, since my decision was easily predictable?

I would say that your will is free because despite their being one known factor at play, there may be any/many others too. And you even have the choice to go against the predictors. In this simple analogy, you might decide, "yes I feel I've been getting fat lately, but screw it, I want Ice Cream NOW and will face the consequences tomorrow".

Ultimately though, the brain is a (very complex) computer, and will choose according to the data and parameters given to it - even if the number and depth of factors involved are so large as to be beyond our conscious comprehension.

That's my call on it anyway

Please correct me if I misunderstand you.

Are you saying that free will is more a matter of a will having more forces/influences/factors impacting its decisions than would make its behavior easily predictable?

Wow..you big dogs are running deep into the woods out there..I cant keep up with you..go on..I'm listening..

Sherri