Wow. I don't remember Jesus ever getting that cranky just because someone asked about what he believed. What is the source of your discomfort in discussing this? Would you like me to stop? You'll notice I'm not trying to tell you to believe as I do, nor am I asking you to stop believing as you do, I'm just exploring your beliefs. Why wouldn't you welcome that?

How do you know that it is the word of God? Remember the Bible is not one book, it is a collection of 66 (depending on your brand of Christianity) books by over 40 authors, written over a number of centuries. And, those 66 books aren't the only books written about man's perceptions of God. There are countless others. Of the 66 books, how many of them even claim they are supernaturally inspired? What about all the similar books that may or may not make the same claim, but aren't in the canon? Who decided which are for the canon and which are not?


Is that the answer to my question? Is that all you can learn from either?

Which is putting faith in your understanding of things and/or ability to choose right?

You can't really separate faith from anything we do or believe, religious or otherwise.

Hi Ras
Hey I am not cranky..but I am not Jesus either..I just didnt understand why you were repeating yourself with the questions I answered..No you need not stop..but I can only answer with what it is I know to be true from my heart..I cannot make or possess you to see what it is I have been enlightened to with spirituality..so I do welcome your questions..and I have tried to answer them but for some reason we are missing the beat here together..sorry..

Here is how I have come to trust God..and not man, in regards to the inspirations and the stories biblically. On my knees..< this is the secret..things hidden are revealed..I dont understand it all biblically.but when reading outside material that may pertain to biblical procedure I often pray before going into depth of something else that may not apply to the bible...Its a go with your gut type thing..but it announces the power in prayer directly to your spirit of openess to pay mind to the things of the Lord..This is a mystery. Spiritual warfare is real. ..We are to stay in the word of God..let the spirit lead us to what it is we should or should no apply to our minds to understand. I can empathize with your question on knowing what is canon and what is not. This involves the mystery Ras..that you will not understand in any term I can possible word. It is left for you to seek..Mathew 7:7 Ask,,it will be given you..Seek and you will find..Knock and it will be opened for you..< this is inclined to seeking the word and your lot in life.

There is a mental projectory to arm yourself in battle when you pray..Ephesians 6: 10-18, because the battle is real..as said earlier..Satan trembles at the weakest Christians on their knees..Mentally put on these pieces as you go to war in prayer to find answers the world does not seem to offer..

I have read books and been moved by the spirit as it takes guard over my decision making..many many times. Your spirit keeps you in check with the things of the Lord..again its a mystery..one must seek it diligently and it is of a treasure..unlike any you will find elsewhere here on this earth.

Quoted by Ras below..
Of the 66 books, how many of them even claim they are supernaturally inspired? What about all the similar books that may or may not make the same claim, but aren't in the canon? Who decided which are for the canon and which are not?

As far as the stories of long ago told..what is of them that is not of God? Satan has power as well supernaturally..if we allow to let him reside in us you may be surprised at the possession he can manifest with in our very being. Yes even so the here and now..Remember its spiritual warfare.. demon and angels are at war above and over our understanding and in a dimension in which we cannot view..

You decide Ras as to what it is God will empower you to understand in books to read as to what is beneficial and what is not..remember..Satan was an angel of light..he knows how to deceive.and he is good at it..The closer you get to Christ the more wisdom you will attain..you will in-time be able to dicifer what is of God and what is not..in all these things a mystery is revealed..and you will discover it as you go..

As far as what it is I have learned..its quite simple..funny thing though..it presents words of challenge per issue to those who cannot see, they go into detail and continually seek answers to the questions in life that are basically right in front of them. God created all things..but men seek how the things were created without acknowledging the Christ to be the creator of all things..see what I am saying here?

They want answers so they do it there way instead of opening up themselves to a very real truth of what this entire planet is all about. When you want a friend..what is it that you seek? God likewise seeks love and friendship..not from beings he created to serve him..but creating beings who have a free choice to serve him..or not. Christ wanted true friendship..just like you and I..they mysteries of the land of milk and honey are not beneath us to explore and understand..draw near to him and he will draw near to you..

I am still not sure what it is your directly asking me..because rather in simplicity of the making of flowers or fire and brimstone destroying Soddam and Ghomorria, I should think both are miraculous because we cannot say to the skies loose the stones from the hills beyond..let them fall here and destroy such wickedness..so a precision cut on your sentencing may enlighten me a bit. I hope this will find favor to your questions..

Sherri

Odd, with all that, it doesn't look like you answered my questions. You've appealed to two authorities - the word of God, and your gut. But you say you don't trust man (which includes yourself and your gut) and you don't know how you know the Bible is the word of God.

Anyone who doesn't agree with you, you claim is deceived. How do you know its not you that is deceived? Wouldn't someone who is thoroughly deceived claim to have the gut feeling, but not be able to rationally explain how they know their ultimate source of truth is actually the truth?

Ras..your just going to have to re-read it until you get it..rather now or a year from now..my hope is you will one day see..


Your sadly and blindly looking right over my reasoning at to why I believe the word is the way the truth and life. I specifically said..I know because on bended knee and before almighty God..he assures me to the truth. This you will not understand..also something you need to figure out on your own..

The second half of what you said is because the scales on your eyes have not been taken off. The ultimate source of truth is God..it is not for me to explain the way for you to find your own salavation..your either feeling the struggle now as we talk..or you have begun to harden your heart. When people get close to the truth of finding out they are not of the Lord the immediate responce is..conviction..condemnation..or they begin a path to being convinced. So I leave what it is that I have shared for you all to figure it out now..as you will stand before almight God at your demise..and you will be accountable for what it is you now know.

I should like to say..I will no longer cast my pearl before swine..as they bible speaks..but since I too waddle in the muck and the mire..who am I to say such a thing and it is so that I too am swine. Until this life is over..that is when I will be free of the chains that bind me here and no longer be slave to a world that will continue to de-nounce Christ until his second coming.

Sherri

Pearls before the swine? Which pearl is that? "I know because I'm assured of the truth in prayer." Guess what? That particular pearl is pretty easy to find. Every religion on earth says that is how they find truth in prayer. Mormonism must be right up your alley, they know Mormonism is the truth because they pray about it and get the "burning in the belly" or something like that. But that's just Satan deceiving them right? Scales in their eyes? If anyone besides people who believe like you do get a warm fuzzy while they're praying, its Satan. Right?

Hi Ras
I'm not going to touch this..as you must conclude the answer for yourself on your own knees..God will reveal himself to you..you have to find the answer for yourself,,which church to attend and where it is God leads you. I dont part-take in Religeons as you say who add and or take away from the word..and many do just that..Mormonism it one of them.

The preclusion of the end times is the only division I have seen in the churchs I have attended. Nazarene and Baptist. Heres the way I feel..its coming..Jesus will re-claim his Kingom, and it will start with earth. Thats what I know for sure.

How does a young man keep his ways pure..but that by living according to they word..I have hidden the word in my heart that I might not sin against thee..< This is scripture in Gods word..here you too will find what it is your looking for..not by badgering different beliefs and using them as a deterrent as to why you yourself have trouble believing and submitting to God. Your actions speak louder than words...

No its not a warm fuzzy feeling..you have a long ways to go here Ras..but I remain optimistic about each and every person in here who is looking for truth. You may line me up with who'm you wish..I have shared in my heart what it is I have to offer..now as I said before..what it is you do with it..will be the pearl your looking for. We are all accountable before almighty God and how the word comes alive in us and how we share it. Do you not understand that it is indeed a mystery?..one you must adventure to find with-in your own heart. I say this knowing it appears repetitious. but in this circumstance..it is..as you are not looking with your heart..but with your head..

Sherri

How did you come under the misconception that I'm not already in possession of all the answers I need and satisfied with my spiritual wellbeing? Just because I've asked questions about your beliefs, which you invoke all over the place on this forum, does not mean I have problems with mine.

But Mormons pray, and they are assured in prayer they have found the truth. Just ask one. They say the same thing you do.

How do you know they "add and or take away from the word?" What is the word, and how do you know yours is right and theirs is wrong? They pray just like you do. They say they have been assured in prayer they have arrived at the truth the same as you.

And I've never said "part-take in Religeons." :-)

Hi Ras..
If you are in possession of the answers to your questions spiritually then why must you tarry and continue to seek answers with me, as your questions continue..

I dont see evidence in your life as to what it is you say you have answers to..that is my reasoning behind your question about yourself.

The Mormons have added references to their beliefs and follow a structured book created by them in itself. No there prayer is not like mine..that is personal..I cannot seem to convey the message clearly enough for you to grasp..that I am sorry for..again, it is not my battle with you,,but your personal battle with the enemy and the victory you can and will find if you seek him that is all powerful and knowing.

Sherri

Because, as often as I see you invoke and promote your spritual beliefs on the forum, I concluded you like talking about it. I am satisfied with my answers to the questions I've asked you, my motive was for you to think about the answers.

Huh? What do you know about my life? I think I've misunderstood you.

I'll just put all my cards on the table and then let you have the last word on this. I honestly don't want to change your mind on anything, I just like to argue, but usually not about stuff like this.

That said...

What you have is a really nice self-licking ice cream cone for your system of beliefs. If you were to organize your thoughts, I suspect you would claim that the Holy Bible is the final arbitor of truth. That means, you believe that anything that can be believed should be tested against what the Bible says, and anything that conflicts with the Bible is not true. So, if you prayed about something, and believed you were given an answer in prayer, you'd test that answer against the Bible to ensure it doesn't conflict.

Now the question is, how do you know the Bible is the final arbitor? If the answer is "because it says it is," that is a dangerous answer, and not an answer at all from a rational standpoint. It parts with logic. A departure from logic is a lie - and un-truth, and I'm sure you don't believe God lies? If your answer is "because I prayed about it, or because deep in my heart I just know" that is problematic as well because you test what you know against the Bible. That would then put you in the position of final arbitor of truth. I'm sure you'd disagree with that right?

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to do some deep and organized thinking about what knowledge is, and how you know things. This is called epistemology. Are things true because you believe them, or do you believe things because they are true?

Or, you can go on thinking "the bible is true, and I know its true because it says its true, and it never lies." Or, "what I know deep in my heart from prayer is true because I know deep in my heart that it is." If you're happy with that, then don't bother with it.

If you really want to get down to it, this is true - when I pick up the coffee cup, I am having 'faith' that it isn't a hallucination and my hand won't go right through it, and when I drive through a green light, I'm having 'faith' that drivers on the corresponding red lights will stop rather than plough right into me. But I have evidence in both those cases to support my belief. To my mind that is what makes something faith - the lack of evidence (and anecdotal or dogmatic 'evidence' be it from a pulpit or elsewhere is not really evidence). We have to draw our own lines as to what is real, and if you choose to fully believe in something without any real evidence is a different thing to rationalizing it out. Of course there are layers upon layers upon layers to our beliefs too, each belief based on other pre-determined belief - we have to do this so we don't spend life considering every aspect of every decision over and over, so it just becomes subconsciously 'filed' as established fact (e.g. I can rely on the 'fact' that the coffee cup is real so it's ok to put it in the coffee maker and fill it with coffee - maybe a boring example but it's early and it will suffice).

Agreed. I flip on the light switch believing (having faith) that the light bulb has not burned out.

The source of the evidence is not the problem. People can say things that are true from the pulpit, its just that saying it from the pulpit, or in a Bible, or whatever, does not make it true. The same goes with "feeling something is true." I may feel like I have gas, and I may very well have gas - or it could be I have a ruptured something or other.

This is where it gets interesting. And I think this is the key I am trying to get Sherri to see. How we discern whether something is true or not, and what we consider is evidence and what isn't.

I could decide that from now on, I'm not going to turn on any light switches until I've determined the light bulb works. The thing is, I have no way of knowing if it has gone bad in the time it take me to go from the light bulb to the light switch. You just can't factor "faith" out comepletely, there will always be some small question whether something is true, however minute.

Well put.

This is why I have a hard time understanding atheistic beliefs. (I'm defining an atheist who demands there can be no God, rather than the agnostic who believes there isn't enough evidence to know there is a God.) What evidence is there that the existance of God is impossible? I submit that any such evidence is based on a problematic process of drawing conclusions.

RasQ/UOTE)Or, you can go on thinking "the bible is true, and I know its true because it says its true, and it never lies." Or, "what I know deep in my heart from prayer is true because I know deep in my heart that it is." If you're happy with that, then don't bother with it.[/quote]



HI Ras..
I choose this..otherwise we will run into the same conclusion I supported my early on answers with..long thread that it is..I can answer your questions..but at this point it would become argumentive, that I am abstaining from..I do however respect your viewpoints and logic that you proclaim to be fitting..to each his own..

Sherri

I agree entirely on the issue of Atheism - it in itself requires a leap of faith (in the conclusion that there is no God). I've seen no convincing evidence to support that conclusion. Certainly I choose not to believe in a single, all powerful super-being sitting on high, playing 'God' with humanity. That's what lead me to come to my own personal belief-system about life, the universe, etc.

To me, Atheism is a cop-out, and not so different from the acceptance of formal religion that most Atheists seem to despise so much, as the Atheists would like to believe.

Agnosticism seems to me a much more valid a position to take. And although I do have a belief-system myself, I acknowledge fully I may be wrong, so I am an agnostic at heart really. If there is an afterlife of any description, I may (or may not) find out about it when I'm dead.