Well, my point with the Tunguska event was that even something tens of meters across simply doesn't hit. It explodes before it's ever even near the surface of the Earth. Something smaller probably wouldn't make it. It'd look more like a great bloody firey explosion in the sky, which, funnily enough, is exactly what it is.

You seem to be applying a hierarchy as miracles go. You appear to agree with me that a flower is a miracle just as the wiping out of a city with fire. There's a couple catches tho.

First, man has been able to wipe out a city with his own devices for decades now, but we still can't build a flower. Do you still think a flower is less a miracle than fire being rained down on a city?

Second, the only way you can "know" that those two cities were wiped out is because someone wrote in down a long long time ago. You can see a flower before you own eyes. Which of these miracles are you more likely to believe?

Third, what do you learn from the miracle of a flower compared to what you learn from the "miracle" of a city being wiped out?

Hi Ras..
Ok you are going in circles here and confusing a very simple happening..

1. I already answered that one,,if you cant figure it out (sorry), re-read it at a slower pace.

2. Because some man who wrote it down..NO..its in the word of God, the way the truth the life..in this faith is required..faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things un-seen, The word of God is the book you will find truth in over and above all other books. If you choose not to believe, well then it is your right..however..faith is required as to the entirety of the Godhead itself. See, so as you go..as you learn..as you believe..your faith is acquired, you build and believe because as you seek God, he removes the scales from your eyes to see him..to know him..only you alone can discover those secrets of the living God with-in you..greater is he within me than he that is in the world. Now if your faithless, and have debated the Godhead through doubt, and cast him off as an un-likely figure in todays time..well then..what can I say.

3. How easy is the 3rd one Ras..both entities are from the hand of God..doesnt matter the performance rather growth of a flower or destruction with purpose..God did that, you cannot..the only way man can destroy is by weapons, had not God not created man..there would be no weapons..so this is by his creation and the intelligence there of in a mans mind to create weapons..its not God literally doing the destruction..The most dangerous thing God gave us is free will...

Sherri

You can't believe in both fatalism and voluntarism at the same time, they are mutual exclusive.

Omitting all but a small part of this ...

... to me this encapsulates the essence of the religion debate. You can't really claim to be religious or have any relationship with a 'God'(whatever that may mean to you) without faith - belief without evidence. The only alternative (my personal flavour of understanding of things) is to choose what you believe to be the most likely explanation of things.

Those who do have faith will never be able to explain it fully to a degree where those without it fully empathize, because it is an experiential thing. That impossibility to empathize with faith without experiencing it is what 'non-believers' get stuck on. And I think this is why religious debates (is there or isn't there a 'God' etc) lead to frustration and nowhere else most of the time.

Figuring this out was what lead me to be able to get over the frustration I had with it - to just accept that because there is a thing called faith, one has to just accept that some choose to believe without evidence, and that it is (of course) entirely their right to do so. Stuff like a choice of deity and church etc (once you do have faith) is just a social decision when it boils down to it. I guess one I really don't really quite grasp, or at least don't relate to, is the people who don't really have any true faith because they have never really spent any time considering the issue, but keep wandering along to church each week, or each year etc, labeling themselves as this that or the other, really for no reason more than thats what they were raised to do - perhaps that is an issue of questioning authority (for me, questioning authority of any kind always came naturally, and for others the opposite may be true too)

Hi MRiGnS
Your wearing me out with your coming..did you know? I guess I should expect it...who said anything about any of the terms you are using..now your replacing exactness with words that suit you so you may remain comfortable in your sin..because this is how I know you dont have salvation is by your ignorance..that is to be said in kindness..

Sherri

You can't have both gods will and humans free will. It's one or another. If you now say that it's gods will to give us free will we wouldn't have free will.

About the terms: I think they are very clear. I don't know other terms describing it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism

opposed to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntarism_(philosophy)

Fatalism is a philosophical doctrine emphasizing the subjugation of all events or actions to fate or inevitable predetermination.

Fatalism generally refers to several of the following ideas:

1. That free will does not exist, meaning therefore that history has progressed in the only manner possible. [1] This belief is very similar to determinism.
2. That actions are free, but nevertheless work toward an inevitable end. [2] This belief is very similar to compatibilist predestination.
3. That acceptance is appropriate, rather than resistance against inevitability. This belief is very similar to defeatism.

MRiGnS..

Your scaring me do you know that? please do act like you know something here...yes..you have Gods will first and inevitably..got it? he created the Heavens and the earth..so he comes first..after that..he made us..and with us he gave the ability to have free will..choice of anything and all things.

You know MRiGnS,,ironically enough I just read in the bible the other day that God hides answers to those who seem to be wise,,now I understand why..

Fatalism is inevitable..God holds the keys..he made earth, and all that exist in it,,rather you choose to believe that or not is up to you..thus he will indeed destroy when he is ready and all that is with in it.. We all shall meet our maker in the end and I can and will guarantee you that..it may be me you remember in your meeting of God,,its not a mystery I have stumbled into this forum..I usually act on a calling..and I work on the areas and people God so informs me to do so..its called prayer..

Now..you can candy coat your way of thinking in any form you like..that is free will M...but it stems from being created first from God himself..he created you in your mothers womb as he said..I knit you together in your mothers womb, and brought you forth on the day you were born..Psalm 139: 13
This is undisputed..rather you agree or not..

Its not defeatism M..can you not see? your eyes are closed,,each person I have contended with in here is a work of art..but its Gods work..you are in the many he brought forth to carry a sword and go to battle for him and yet it brings tears to his eyes to hear you reject him..its your lot in this life..you can go which way you want..choose what you want..but its a means to an end..in which ( my friend ) God will have ultimate say in your demise..so choose well in your short time but that of a vapor here in your shallow existence..as we all shall meet God almighty in the end.

Sherri

It doesn't have anything to do whether I believe in god or not.

You seem to imply that your faith is absolute and that it won't change. But guess what, that's what the people thought while burning "witches".

Christian faith evolved over the centuries, if it wouldn't have there wouldn't be all those countless denominations.

Maybe you're the one following false gods, satan, whatever. Have you thought about that?

Hi Kevin..
Your on a roll here..dare I say,.some of what you have revealed here has much truth in it..but faith comes by hearing..and hearing through the word of Christ. Going to church weekly places emphasis on a new direction in life that leads you to wholeness, not that of which the world offers, consistent competition and over all..( look at me ) type self image. God teaches to do the opposite to refrain from that..

Again..choosing what you so believe to be right without the spirit acting on your behalf to prompt you to do the right thing is just that..you...WITHOUT GOD AS YOUR VICTOR..so you choose by your own wisdom that will avail nothing in the long run..sorry to say..I told you before as I have said to all..want to know the Keys to Jesus? want to be challenged in a way you never were before? CAN YOU ALL? WILL YOU ALL? OR WILL YOUR HEARTS BE HARDENED TO THE POINT OF NOT OPENING UP TO THE MYSTERIES OF THIS LIFE?

then go to my home page..here are the steps..clk on the Keys to Jesus

1. Disconnect the phone..cell and anything that would be disruptive..

2. Get on your knees before almighty God? on your knees..Satan trembles at the weakest Christian on his knees..there is a reason for that..he knows spiritual warfare is on the rise and you are testing the spirits..

3. Take the word of God with you..I can almost guarantee all of you that in your quest to seek almighty God on your knees..Satan will attack..how?
everything in the world will make its presence known to you in those very few beginning moments for prayer before almight God..you know..kids..bills your prayers wont go beyond the ceiling..EVERYTHING..if your but a fool and fall fold to the enemy..then everything I said to do and complete above will vaporize. I am not here to argue before spiritual matters..but to be of an assistance to direct you gently to the very source you are questioning..Almighty God..do you not see?

I can tell you of my own personal experience as far as faith Kevin..if you like to here..its rather long..but quite sincere..why I have a book full of accomplishments on the work of God and his answers in my life..

Sherri

its up to you now..what will you do? with what it is you know to do?

Presupposing God's existence, that doesn't seem to follow.

God smites some wicked city. That would be his will.

People volunteer their resources to help the victims of God's will. That's humans' free will.

I'm confused as to how the two are mutually exclusive?

Hi MRiGnS

The first statement you made her is an exact..I will not waver..as far as burning witches, that was pure ignorance of the word, yet they used this an a binary tool to use against those they wanted to massacre..it was total ignorance..they killed without reason..the spirit was not in them..

Hey M..read what I posted for Kevin...listen..if I didnt give a rats butt for you or any of the other people in here do you think I would really be sticking my neck out here for you to hang in the noose? I can only request you do as I ask..if you so do not find the answer your looking for..
then challenge Christ from a different angle..the is is my request that all of you visit the page I made on..Favorites..to to http://www.wayofthemaster.org/..take the test they have..when your finished..then tell me all about it..unless you are that hard..then there is no-one to fight for your freedom, for your just cause..because you will live in eternal doubt here and other wise..blessings to you in your quest.

Sherri

Hi Iandefor..

Wheww..someone with a sword...FINALLY..

Sherri

With a sword? I'm confused.

In this scenario god created man and man lives and acts like god wants him to act. The second coming of Christ and all that stuff, tells you that you can't escape the will of god, we were acting like he wanted us to act all along.

If god would just be random guy, without ultimate power his and our will wouldn't be mutual exclusive, but since he's supposedly omnipotent, I don't see how the existence his and our will can go along.

Does free will necessitate that a person's actions be unpredictable? I think, given how depressingly easy it is for people to manipulate one another, free will or no, it would be trivial for a God to do the same on a massive scale.

I already knew about this site. And I think that you're guilty of idolatry, because your god is made up, he only exists in your imagination. And your church is guilty of lying to people.

Did you know that a devout Muslim would pass that test, too?

That's an interesting point. Now the question is if you could withstand God's mass manipulation or not.

Free will itself is a very controversial issue, combined with religion it's only wicked.

Do we already have a thread about free will? I'm not that fond of the search feature.
It may be the best decision to start a new one, so this threads doesn't get spammend.

Hi MRiGnS

Wow..as I said before you scare me..if this is indeed how you feel, and it is obvious you have not determined to examine that which I said to do..then it is you my friend who is guilty..it is you that hammered the nails into Gods hands..it is you that in the end..will meet your maker and be in shock as to the reality of the rest of eternity..SELAH..

Sherri

Searching for threads with "free" and "will" in the title leads me to conclude it would be better just to start a new one. Have fun.