I can't disagree with your reasoning at all, but it depends on one's beliefs about what gender is. If one believes it is purely a physical thing, then you are correct, and 'gender reassignment' surgery is inappropriate as a 'therapy'. If however, you hold a belief, as do I and many others, that there is more to gender than the physical - as discussed earlier here - then it is more complex, and one has to consider there may be some validity to a 'gender identity crisis'. Perhaps there is somethign physical yet to be discovered - some gene yet to be mapped that differentiates between psychological gender as opposed to physical gender. Or perhaps it goes beyond genetics to a completely different level - call it an aspect of spirituality if you like.

I find it hard to seriously consider that people might be psychologically or spiritually natural smokers though.

On the issue of addiction (yes it's 90% off topic, but is that really such a big issue here any more ?), the big popular therapy on that front for many years has been the 12 step program. Personally I'm not a fan of that as I believe it replaces the addiction with another addiction. So it is a lifelong unending therapy, rather than a cure. It works for some, but is once again a case of treating a symptom and ignoring the 'disease' (the analogical disease, not related to some folks calling addiction a "disease")

I did some research on 12 steps programs once. The people who adhere to the 12 step program believe alcoholism is a incurable disease, so its only reasonable they would treat it as a lifelong process of recovery or prevention or whatever.

Addiction seems an odd word. I take a drug that usually prevents most of my cluster headaches. The disease itself is one I'll have the rest of my life, so I'm told, and the only thing I can do to lessen the misery is take a particular drug. So, I'm self-motivated to take this pill every day. Its a choice between taking the pill, or the possibility of headaches that make me want to kill myself. I take the pill. Am I addicted to the pill?

These alcoholics find their life miserable so they begin living according to this program to prevent their life from being miserable, and/or continueing to drink themselves to death.

If there is ever a cure for cluster headache, I'll be the first in line, but until there is, its one verapamil tablet a day.

Right - they see it as a disease and one that they can only treat symptomatically. But even if it is a disease, who is to say it's incurable - since there are plenty of people who do beat the condition without the 12 step program, by doing it with will power etc, that seems a pretty big clue to me that its not incurable.

I think its just a whole lot easier to call it incurable and grab a crutch, than deal with the real issue, and cure oneself (because although you can get external assistance/guidance, the cure does lie within oneself).

Have you had any direct experience with 12 step programs? Where are you getting your information about them being a crutch and all?

Hey you guys..
I want to tell you it is a disease, I fought it for 13 years, crashed the gate at 98..fell for a 1 1/2 year, it almost took me apart this last time. When I quit before I was forced to go to a doctor in which I told him I was having a heart attack, he looked at my hands...did an EKG...said my skin was dry, then told me I am not having a heart attack..cant recall the drug he administered, but when I was using it to help me, I found out it was for alcohol withdrawals..See he knew I was suffering but I was in denial, he treated me anyway with no admittance on my part. I went through !@#$ for 3 months..several years of AA, finally I was past the shakes and sweating from fighting this disease. Some think they have it...I will tell you others like myself have lived it..its real, and it will take your world apart every which way it can. It truly is cunning and baffling..it will rob your very soul if you allow it..one must fight it to the good of there total outcome. There are underlying issues that lead people to alcohol 50% of the time..however..once your on the stuff, it seals its mark in your veins..it lives in your blood..you crave it and thirst for it..12 step is a program of stepping stones if applied correctly and you actually use it,,it keeps your mind off of drinking..gives you alternatives to a way out,,and as you participate within a group, a healing process begins..support..understanding..and victory stories..without it so many of us would never make it..it only becomes a crutch if we allow it to, the program that is..by continuing to use the drug of your choice and becoming a whinebag on everyones shoulder...instead of waking up out of your slumber and realizing..THIS IS MY LIFE...AND I AM LOSING IT..COULD TAKE OTHERS DOWN WTIH ME IN THE PROCESS..WAKE UP..SEE THE LIGHT..well God was my higher power and the program saved my from myself and total selfishness along with stupidity for ever resorting to alcohol, rather fun or dismay..it snuck in the back door and broke off the key in the lock..it took years for me to pick the lock, open new doors and come to the realization that life is to precious to waste away inside a bottle..


Sherri

Sherrie are you cured now or do you still go to AA?

1. Yes, as direct as it gets. I decided after a fair trial of 12 steps it was not for me (for the reasons stated) and dealt with the issue myself.

2. a.) See number 1
b.) Through various friends direct experiences
c.) Years working in Drug and Alcohol field with direct contact with many users in every stage of addiction and post-addiction

To me, quitting an addiction is a matter of truly making the decision to do so, out of a genuine desire to do so. Treating the addiction as a lifelong disease you have to resign yourself to and deal with daily forever is not a psychologically helpful approach. Put simply, you are telling yourself that while there is an option to succeed each day, there is also an option to fail each day - which is a constant temptation and potential rationalization, and to my mind often leads to what they like to call relapse (the very thing it is trying to prevent).

Doing it because you feel "you have to" (and therefore reevaluating that decision constantly on at least the sub-conscious level) is not the same thing as truly making the decision to do it, then just doing it.

Exactly the same principle applies to quitting smoking from my experience. Attempts to quit because you *should* generally lead to failure. Truly deciding you no longer want to smoke enable you to 'just do it'. "Cravings" become an internal conflict of "I want it ... oh then again, No I don't want it, I just forgot that momentarily", rather than one of "I want it, but I shouldn't". The former is much more powerful position to be in than the latter. And after a time the cravings disappear. But if you are going to meetings and/or considering and addressing your permanently 'diseased' condition for the rest of your life, you are directly enabling yourself to fail.

All of which does not take away the fact that 12 steps work great for some people. One can't dismiss crutches as a therapeutic tool simply because some people using them may actually, without their awareness, not need them at all. And indeed there are some people, like Sherri by the sounds of it, who use it as a tool and eventually 'walk on their own'.

Hi Ras
No I am not cured..no cure for the ailing..I fight alcoholism on a daily basis..its better..but by the grace of God I slither through each day and small daily victories bring about hopeful change in my way of thinking. Presently I am not in AA. I have made meetings randomly throughout this year..but the first 3 years..wow, it was 3 days a week.. Let me be the first to say..the meetings are crucial..

Sherri

Kevin quoted

To me, quitting an addiction is a matter of truly making the decision to do so, out of a genuine desire to do so. Treating the addiction as a lifelong disease you have to resign yourself to and deal with daily forever is not a psychologically helpful approach. Put simply, you are telling yourself that while there is an option to succeed each day, there is also an option to fail each day - which is a constant temptation and potential rationalization, and to my mind often leads to what they like to call relapse (the very thing it is trying to prevent).

HI Kevin

Funny thing Kevin, my husband thinks the exact same way as you do..maybe that is why he never has issues,,but when he saw me fall of the wagon he almost had heart failure, not to mention put up with me and loved me through it..He wont even accompany anyone who has it or let me around it. Now he doesnt say this..he just always side steps any invitation where there is alcohol, ya I feel bad about all of this too. Now he has seen a true soul climb the mountain back to some kind of normal behavior again. I know the man loves me so..you see he didnt understand the disease either..The program is to help you find a path..stick to it..and maybe eventually walk away and prevail at every measure..see..I did..for 13 years I did..it took one drink..one thought..thinking I was in control and could socially drink, it crippled me for a 1 1/2, now I am swimming through the deep water again trying to surface for air..once I get past feeling I need to have this stuff running through my veins and it putting a fix on me, I will again walk with caution forever in a day..

Sherri

If it works for you Sherri, I wouldn't say ever 'don't do it, because it will leave you dependent on the steps instead of the booze'. The key is to find what works *for you*. But one thing is for sure - if you do choose the steps method - controlled drinking is not an option, period, exclamation point! Controlled drinking is basically throwing the steps out the window. I would also recommend (just as another tool I have seen used very helpfully by some, either alongside or without steps method) good psychotherapy (meaning therapy with a good therapist - which can unfortunately be a hard thing to find). Can be expensive though. Meditation can also be great for many people.

So Kev, if you don't mind me asking, do you now drink normally or are you not drinking at all?

What caused you to go to AA in the first place?

HI Kevin,
Thanks on this...No please understand, I used the term controll (loosely)
I will never be able to control the use of alcohol, I am not fooling myself here..but the stinking thinking begins to seed when you fall of the wagon again, so its about reversing the process of thought and remember you cannot control it. I once told myself, mid year of not drinking..if I ever drink again, I need only to use handcuffs and attach myself to the bed in the house..throw the key and in this I would not drive. There it was..the culprit returns...trying to control the atmosphere so I could have a quick fix..so it took all I had to re-consider, also I talked to a mentor at the time who re-reminded me...that I was thinking I was still in control..now I know.

Sherri

Sure, I'll 'share' as they say

For me it wasn't specifically alcohol, but substance abuse in general - poly-drug use as they call it, so the meetings I attended were mostly NA not AA, though there were a few AA ones thrown in.

After quitting the meetings and doing it my own way, there was certainly some struggle, dealing with the change away from a very long time of established behaviour/lifestyle/etc.

But I did it and not through straight abstinence. For many years I did maintain what one would call 'normal' social drinking/smoking habits (partaking regularly with other people, sometimes to a point of inebriation, sometimes not). Now I scarcely drink at all, and never smoke. I'm still working my way through a case of beer I bought the Christmas before last - and also bought 1 bottle of wine in that period. But my choice of being mostly abstinent has nothing to do with controlling an addiction - I just drifted away from it out of disinterest I think. And probably it is heavily related to my social habits now, which are pretty much non-existent since I moved to the USA and came back then moved to the country. I'm sure I would be more inclined to have an occasional drink in a social situation than alone. In short, the whole thing is really a non-issue for me these days. As for why I chose to address my substance issues in the first place - it was because I could see it was self-destructive and after so long unquestioningly following on a self-destructive path it occurred to me there might be some value in getting off it.

It doesn't sound like you had a really serious problem with addiction, just a bad habit or two. Either way, its good you have put it behind you. Congrats on that.

hmmmm ... wellll ... I guess it depends on one's definition of addiction vs habit (or indeed is there a difference at all). If it is a matter of scale, then I would think a lifestyle which descends to the point where your main task of existence each day is finding a way to supply your 'habit' so as not to fall into serious physical withdrawal, qualifies as addiction.

If the definition is one of physical addiction vs psychological addiction, then I would say that it is just an issue of the physical withdrawal symptoms (e.g. heroin) vs psychological withdrawals (e.g. cannabis). But I certainly did qualify on that score.

Without going into to many gory details, I think it is probably not possible to consume the sheer quantities of narcotics (in particular) that I did on a daily basis through the years when my usage was at it's heaviest, without becoming addicted.

Sorry, I didn't mean to minimize your problem.

Not a problem - and no need to apologize at all - I did try to tone it down a bit I guess.

Hi Kevin..

Remember..we have learned through this program to listen for what is not being said. You yourself would be in denial to say..I could use my drug of choice and still fair back to normal..negative..I know you know this..you have not said..

If you have delighted yourself to the point of inebriation from time to time, that in itself is chances you take..it too can and will lead you back to your drug of choice..in your case..( which is rare ) your saying your in control of not being tempted to do your drug of choice rather its that particular high or not..but..you are getting high ( even on occasion ) through alcohol intoxication . There is a difference in the high..but none the less Kevin..its a high..its dangerous..and misleading..anytime in your life this could bring you back into the realm of thinking you can do your drug of choice..You have not crossed that path..God willing you never will. You may be a stronger individual on the on-set..but..it only takes one return back to insanity and thinking we are in control.

If I smoked a doobie..it would eventually follow with alcohol. What I am saying is..your strength is honorable..but also know..you are one of us..you can run, but you cannot hide..I learned this too..I am sure you wont like what I am saying here..but if you know the program as you have said..then you know exactly what my verbal approach is here..see?

Sherri

I do know the program, but the difference is in what we believe the program to be, which in turn is the very reason I found it not to be the solutions for me. Your response is correct according to the concepts of the steps programs, but this is where I think they are, when it all boils down to it, about avoiding the real issue rather than dealing with it, by 'surrendering to a higher power', 'acknowledging we are powerless against our addiction'. As I said earlier, that's fine (indeed great) for those for whom it works and enables them to lead a life they are happy with. But for me personally it would be false to go that way when I do not believe it to be ultimately true. In fact I suspect it might not even work for me at all because of the fact I don't really believe in it. It would be like going to church to pray each week when you don't believe in God - meaningless without genuine faith.

To me, I do not have a medical/incurable condition called addiction, which is being managed through abstinence. I had a behavioral issue which led to a temporary condition of addiction etc. If I should ever choose to go back to that (I can't see it happening but one should never say never really) then it would be my choice, and mine alone - I would be responsible for it and only I could deal with it.

Also, the occasional times I do have a drink, I really don't do it for the alcohol 'high' anyway. On a hot day, there is no drink more refreshing than a very cold beer (once you have acquired the taste for it). I tried 'socially drinking' (alone) a few years ago, where the point of it did involve the alcoholic effect, and frankly it wasn't the least bit interesting any more. There's half a bottle of vodka in the freezer left over from that experiment, which will most likely never get drunk (perhaps I'll eventually think of a use in cooking for it).

Hi Kevin!
I see your point here. Well in my findings of the program did lead me back to my higher power which in return gave me the initial tools to insulate myself against the disease.. So the God factor did come into play..its just I was away from that particular interest in my life for the time..So basically the program re-directed me. I did faithfully do all the steps. Worked good and kept me busy on top of having the support around me. Now as far as what your higher power may be..well when they say..your higher power could be a door knob..ya right. Well they are basically saying, we accept all without conviction and or condemnation..the door is open..so in this many have succeeded the program.. I said earlier, you position on the use of alcohol is that of my husbands as well. Everyone is different..

Sherri