"The world has never had a good definition of the word liberty, and the American people, just now, are much in want of one. We all declare for liberty; but in using the same word we do not all mean the same thing. With some the word liberty may mean for each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor; while with others the same word may mean for some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men's labor. Here are two, not only different, but incompatable things, called by the same name-liberty. And it follows that each of the things is, by the respective parties, called by two different and incompatable names-liberty and tyranny." - Abraham Lincoln

I came across this quote today, and it struck me. This is the confusion with many of you that I have disagreed with, at JD.

You confuse "each man to do as he pleases with himself, and the product of his labor", which is what I personally advocate, with, "some men to do as they please with other men, and the product of other men's labor"

Those are opposites. You can't have both, only one. Collectivism, in all it's guises, advocates the latter. That is why it is incompatible with personal freedom.

Liberty is just an interpretation of the current and prevailing social mores.

How so? Liberty isn't a flexible concept. It has a rigid definition, as a word.

lib·er·ty

1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.

2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.

3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

4. freedom from captivity, confinement, or physical restraint: The prisoner soon regained his liberty.

5. permission granted to a sailor, esp. in the navy, to go ashore.

6. freedom or right to frequent or use a place: The visitors were given the liberty of the city.

7. unwarranted or impertinent freedom in action or speech, or a form or instance of it: to take liberties.

8. a female figure personifying freedom from despotism.

I don't see what popular opinion has to do with freedom.

At the risk of hijacking a good thread, did Lincoln make that quote before or after he infringed on the Confederate States' liberty to secede?

Yeah, I find it very ironic, myself, that he spoke so much on the subject of liberty. Lincoln was a conflicted person, in general, I think. He's certainly an interesting person to study but very inconsistent in his principles. I'll see if I can dig up a date for that quote.

In my view, Lincoln's principle was centralizing power in the federal government. Anything else was secondary.

Yes but the problem is that Liberty is never treated (unfortunately) as just a word. From what I can see it is often open to the current thinking and interpretations of societies rulers.

For example, I'm sure Bush's interpretation of Liberty is markedly different from mine or even the word definitions given above.

If you go around making up your own definitions for words instead of using what's in the dictionary, yeah, things won't match up.

It seems that the spirit of this discussion is addressing Liberty, not as word, but as an Idea, as narayan touched on. An extremely important difference because, while Webster's is indisputable, an Idea IS subject to popular belief. The definition of God and what God means to a Christian will tend to be vastly different. While I'm still only thinking about it myself, it may be important to bring up Freedom. is Liberty an expansion on the idea of Freedom or vice versa. 'freedom' is mentioned a lot in liberty's definition.
A closer inspection of this posted definition could be interpreted as 'Liberty is Freedom granted by Permission' in which case, Freedom is the term we should inspect. Particularly Freedom as it relates to needing permission. However it is also subject to the difference between Websters and Idea.