Yeah, my objection wasn't against homosexuality, at all. I just object to grade-school kids being force-fed a particular view point that is outside of the necessary curriculum.

It's practically controversial for the sake of it, and it in no way enhances the educations of the children outside of perhaps indoctrinating them in a particular view-point.

As others have said, lets focus on the ABCs and 123s, and lets leave the politics for a higher grade.

I've got to ask this - how on earth does a book *containing* gay characters equate to force feeding someone a particular viewpoint?

And no, schools are not just there to teach ABC and 123 - they play a huge role in general socialising and teaching the morals of society.

This entire thing is only a controversy because of biggotted people. If you go through the long list of fairy tales available, there are a large number which contain potentially controversial subjects. But the fact remains that the children won't know any different and will just read it as a story.

A book containing a character who is homosexual is not the same as a book promoting homosexuality.

Yikes! Run for the hills. Something Lordfu was saying about labor camps yesterday comes to mind.

Whose morals are to be taught in government schools Zuk?

I'm going to have to actually read this book, aren't I, damnit?

I'm pretty much talking out of my ass, as to what the book is actually about, but I'm sure everyone already knew that.

But, yeah, if public schools where I live have been responsible for teaching morals and general socializing, I'd have to give them a F-, underlined, circled, with a capital F for FAIL.

If they could just teach kids to not eat paint chips and not play in traffic, that would be a step up from their current curriculum, lol. I think they're only covering bad haircuts and shitty attitudes, from what I can tell.

I'd say bigotry most certainly plays a role in why some people object to the book. I'm just not sure that a topic I wouldn't broach with my hypothetical 7 year-old (really, what the hell does a kid that age need to know about any sexuality, gay, straight, or otherwise? But, again, I have no actual idea what the actual contents of this book are.), I'm far less comfortable with a public school attempting to address.

Maybe schools in your neighborhood/city/state/country are really that much better, localzuk, but they're pretty poor at doing much of anything, where I am. Most of the public-school teachers I know home-school their kids. What's that tell you when the teacher won't bring their own kids to the school they work at?

The point is that they aren't broaching the subject of sexuality - the book simply mentions it in the form of characters. That's my point - why is it controversial if no-one makes a controversy out of it?

And yes, working in a school myself (not as a teacher, mind) I can say our schools do one hell of a job educating kids.

Where are you from, out of idle curiosity?

everyone's and no one's, it's a public school. Not your personal playground.

Which is why they should stick strictly to reading, writing, and math - leave morality out of it. Leave controversial material out of it. Etc.

Minehead, in the UK.

Exactly that - we should teach societie's norms.

And anything you agree with is societies norms, and anything you disagree with is bigotted, stupid, or wrong for some other reason, and should be censored. Who gets to decide what society's norms are? You? The king? The majority?

We as a society dare not allow our children to know that people actually smoked cigarettes sixty some years ago, especially not people who illustrate children's books, so we photoshop out the cigarette from their photo in the back of the book.

Well, Social norms are established by Local Culture as a whole are rather easily observed-but thats not what I want to talk about

A children's book was written a couple years ago entitled something like 'My Two Daddies'- I don't remember the exact title but its topic is fairly obvious. I bring this up because its an example of a book for children regarding homosexuality in a respectful, understanding manner. Yet this book does not contain any details concerning the specifics of their sexuality-simply that they love one another. Any book containing this type of material is (in my opinion) clearly acceptable for 2nd graders.

As to weather or not the sexual detail should be discussed and what age? That is entirely dependent on the local cultures acceptable age of sexual education. In America, sexual education is rarely covered before 5th grade so it follows that any book teaching hetro- or homo- sexual issues would be 'unacceptable'. This may not be the case in other nations where a younger age is 'acceptable'.

As to the heart of this thread- Parents right to choose educational standards over the government. A hard choice indeed. On one hand, the government should be making personal choices for capable parents, but parents not should be able to control (as individuals) the standards for all children's education. It seems that most schools have a system in place for this concern though- In the schools I attended, when it came time to be taught about Evolution and Sex, permission slips were handed out. If a parent didn't want these controversial subject introduced to their children by the school, they simply stated so on the slip and the child would be dismissed from those lesson (and not have their grade hurt either). While I understand that not all schools do this, every school Ive come across has had some forum for concerned parents to express themselves. Parent Teacher Associations help to serve this very purpose. Even Village Councils and High-level State have opportunities for the 'common man' to be heard.
I am not a parent myself, so perhaps some one could shed more light on what I'm getting at if they've tried themselves, but the avenues to cooperation exist here. Also, while I understand that some parents are too busy to do this, it seem to me that any sufficiently concern parent would Make the time. Perhaps my lack of experience is overly evident...please, anyone correct me where I falter.

Well I think we over-protect what our kids should see or hear. I came upstairs to my son's bedroom once and on hearing what was going on, on the other side of the door (he was alone) I decided it was not the right time to knock...

i think as parents we should be allowed to choose what we want or don't want our kids to read. reading such a story to a second grader may give them the impression that it is ok to be gay and to some people that is not appropriate. a matter like that should be left to the parents to decide not to the government.

With the greatest respecto to you, I guess you may have homophobic tendencies May I qualify that.

As a parent myself, with two children, one of whom (the older one), is now married in a hetero-sexual relationship, I allowed the brevity for my children to read what they like - within reason! My only caution was to steer my children away from dodgy websites that showed porn of one sort or another - If they went there behind my back then I didn't know about it!


Books are another matter. I've found several books in my son's room (relating to teenage boys exploring their sexuality with each other). I firmly believe that boys or girls have to work out where they stand from a sexual standpoint, so long as they are not coerced into a given stance by an older person (for instance to show 'them' to be the leading light on a given subject).

An older person in this example, might be pushing a boy or girl to go down that older person's proclivity of choice and if that older person is using it for their own ends - it is wrong. It makes that older person no better or worse than a paedophile.

Homosexuality I've come to believe, is as natural as being a heterosexual or bisexual - so long as they are above the age of consent. Naturally, as teenagers, we all 'experiment' to a greater or lesser degree, and at some point we set our own choices in our development of ourselves.

That choice is of no concern to the Government or anyone else, be they a religious minister or a parent. We may not like their choices, but its what makes our children who they are - unique!


I hope this discussion wasn't too heavy??

terabyte1

It isn't heavy at all, even though it is very moving. Children will eventually choose their own path. it is up to us to try to steer them in the right direction. A child who begins to feel the feelings of homosexuality usually begins at a very early age, like between 8 or 9. Especially young little boys!

They start to like and admire adults of their same sex, and in time, get real close to an adult, and their feelings will start to grow and escalate higher into a fond feeling of a sexual nature!

Some kids, at times, can't help their sexual preference, especially young kids at age 8 or 9 and older kids around 12 to 13 who are entering adolesence.

Kids at times, WILL explore & play with their friends' private parts to see if they can make their friends get an erection, mainly with their friends during camp, during week-long or weekend sleepovers, after-school visits, or privately in tree club houses during the summer.

And it's usually kids of the same sex who hold these very secret and elite private meetings away from their parents and other siblings whom they think might classify them as being gay or sexual perverts. Mainly young little boys!!

I was introduce to it this way, and exposed to it as a child at only fourteen, by another child while at camp. The 13-year-old boy who kept on following ME around! He wasn't there to learn about nature, camping or the woods. He was there mainly for sex because he had a voracious hunger and lust for it, and he wasn't stopping at anything to get it! He wouldn't stop until he got what, or in this case, WHO he wanted - which was me!!

I was petrified and scared at first, didn't know what it was about, and since it was my first time, I was deathly afraid that the boy would hurt me, but the boy promised me that he wouldn't hurt me. And he kept his word - he didn't. So I let him molest and fondle me and throw himself at and on me. I let him make his moves on me, and he was beginning to make ME feel good as well!!

He had a serious crush on me and he liked me an awful lot. I eventually gave in to his advances, got turned on by him, and we were best friends for a long time! And yes, we also messed around with each other during after-school visits, clubhouse sessions and weekend sleepovers. He was my "first love"!!
I just couldn't wait for the afternoons and weekends to come around so that I could be with my buddy!! We did EVERYTHING together in camp! We were safety buddies in the pool, during overnight stays in the woods, and even at story time with all of us sitting in front of the fire!! We even ate together at the mess hall! He was my best buddy!!

But if it weren't for him, I'd probably never know at that young age what it was like! Kids at times, meet an older person and they become so attached to them that they will even begin to feel more than just a happy friendship with them. Like what the 13-year-old boy felt with me.

A small child - especially a little boy at about age 7, 8 or 9, will at times get so powerfully close and aggressive in bonding a friendship with an adult male, that he usually begins to feel a lot more than just a special bond with that adult, to the point where he starts blatantly "feeling a sexual attraction" toward the adult and will often get an erection in his clothes!!

The expression "a mother always knows" usually can tell when her little boy or girl is becoming gay is always about 99.9% accurate. My mom suspected me before I finally came out and told her. She said that she knew all along about me being gay since I was about 9 years old!! I would admire all of the men who came over to visit, and would immediately make friends with them and sit in their laps for long periods at a time. I'd get horny doing that! And it DID feel so good!

Now I hope that my little buddy whom I tutor at school who is so aggressivley close to me, is so fond of me and likes me an awful lot is not "that way" or "over the fence" because I don't do that with kids. Even if he is, there's still no reason why I shouldn't like him back or help him at all. I love him just the same. He hasn't made any sexual advances or moves on me, so I imagine that he isn't into it. Even though he sometimes looks, acts and walks like he might be. But that is his choice if he is. I just don't want any of the other kids to poke fun at him. It could seriously traumatise him!

But he DOES have a pretty strong and aggressively serious tender loving attachment with me though. I still admire him just as much though! This boy wants me to be with him as much as he wants. He takes being with me very seriously!!

One boy did that to me, but I had to kindly say no. He was only twelve and this was in the "80s. Kids themselves WILL at times, try to go after adults. And like you said, that adult MUST put the brakes on and kindly turn the child down! Don't want to be accused of having sex with a child at all!

But now, on the other hand, if it's a teenager who is 16, 17, 18 or 19, by law, they are about grown anyway, and if they do something with another adult, well, that may be a horse of a different color and it's fair game.

Some kids have gay couples as their parents. The gov't has made it a constitutional right in some states where a gay couple can adopt children just like a heterosexual couple would.

But I think that kids SHOULD learn about homosexuallity in storybooks at a young age. Because eventually, they're going to hear about it anyway.

Most kids I know, especially the 13-year-old boy I know in my neighborhood - he'll frown up at it and poke fun at it in a split second. Not that he should like it, but I think he SHOULD be kindly taught to respect it. Who knows, he might end up on the other side of the fence himself before he reaches adulthood!!

I think kids should learn about it in class. It would help them to understand it more when they reach their teens and they would respect it more. So that if & when they see a gay couple walking down the street holding hands, they wouldn't be so quick to poke at them and/or laugh out loud.

The sick society noadays IS NOT homosexuallity, nor is it heterosexuallity, but rather it's the ancient dinosaur way of keeping kids from at least reading about it at a young age, so that it gradually becomes an acceptance with them and not be thought of as a bad or sick thing.

It only becomes bad or sick when a child is molested, raped or exposed to it otherwise. But if kids were to read about is in class and be made to understand it better, then they might not be so quick to ridicule it before or by the time that they reach about 13 or so.

It's also similar to racism. Kids learn that from their parents, and by the time they are about 12 or 13, they ridicule it and treat a child or adult like crap and start using the N, S, W, OR C-word toward them!!

As a parent myself, I think that children need to be exposed to the Gay gender too so that they get a Balanced Outlook of the human world around them.


There are too many religious and political influences around that might give the wrong kind of message to the young and growing child.


We need to have children who can think for themselves and do what they feel is right for themselves individually and not for some totalitarian religious or political group that sees only a minute microcsm of their own values in the Global world of today.

Terabyte

As a parent you should expose them to it however you feel appropriate, but that doesn't mean government schools should take on the job of exposing anyone to anything other than education in reading, writing, math, etc.

To the part I bolded: You are right - the individualist in your is speaking. School is no place for applying any kind of influences whether they are the kind you agree with or not. School is where skills and knowledge are taught, not influences.

One has to wonder what you see as covered by that "etc". Etc is a very abstract term.

It seems to me that to disallow this book based on the gender (and therefore by extension sexual preference) of the characters in it, is still making decisions on the curriculum - it is just doing it by exclusion rather than inclusion. It would be the same if one excluded a book because the characters in it were black, for example, or wheelchair-bound.

As I remember it (this thread was some time ago) nobody made any real pretense that the book was being excluded (or should be) because of its educational value (or lack thereof). People's opposition was directly against the fact that they thought gay characters should not exist in school materials. The book doesn't even have any 'moral to the story' focusing on the characters genders - it simply has a couple of characters who are the same gender.

If anything, I would hope that materials provided to kids would represent a view of the world as it is. So if (for example) 1 in 10 couples in the real world are same-gender couples, then 1 in 10 couples in the storybooks should be too. Otherwise you are implicitly perpetuating a belief that that 1 in 10 couples is abnormal and should be excluded.

Its tempting, but I don't think I'm going to repeat the same points I've already made. My position has been explained perfectly clear.

As for etc... obviously I'm talking about core curriculem as opposed to things like political views, religion, and so on. Kids don't go to school to learn the right opinion they learn how to function in the world.