Made the proposal for what? If you think he proposed the plan for the 9/11 attacks, you would be very wrong. Bin Laden had go/no go power, but didn't actually plan anything. The planning was done by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, with Mohamed Atta acting as the "commander on the ground" (so to speak).

Ok, I won't ask you to read the thread - how about just reading the topic line? You don't even have to scroll up.

Wow, that is the stupidest argument I have heard in the context. We are "discussing" the idea of peace if we convert to Islam, a religion, based on certain values, ethics and beliefs. And you want to ignore these and just act the right way, not really adopting the religion of Islam, just pretending. And everyone pretending to be Islamic will somehow bring peace to the world?

Anyway, even if we all convert to one belief system it will not bring peace. Peace is impossible until people are allowed to believe what they want, free of judgement or opinion, regardless of anything.

What I am saying is that I don't care if someone believes America is bad because we "allow our women to wear short pants." A little story from my own life:

During the early 90's I was on a deployment and in a Middle Eastern country. I had guard duty, and I was standing this duty alongside a member of that country's military. Long story short, this man and I began talking about "things" and during the course of this conversation he complained about how we "allow our women to wear short pants in public." This was also about the time of the Jimmy Swaggart scandal. "Your religious leaders have sex with whores."

I didn't have "a dog in that fight" so just nodded and shrugged. So what if this guy hated our morals, and I sure wasn't there to defend the Rev. Swaggart right? Afterall, this swarthy bastard was eating some sort of mess out of a plastic bag with his bare hands. To each their own. What's the point of arguing with him?

I listened to his bullshit and didn't protest because "sticks and stones, etc, so forth." I could have took a stand, escalated the situation, tried to explain the superiority of a system based on individual freedoms, but it probably, at best, would have only gotten me in trouble, wouldn't have changed this asshole's mind, and most importantly, I was on his ground - when in Rome...."

I left the exchange proud of myself that I took the high road. Not long after I returned, the World Trade Center was bombed by people with the same, yet stronger, hatred of America.


I want no such thing. What I want is to eliminate every last being on this earth who would act toward attempting to force us "heathen dogs" into converting to Islam, or support in any way those who do.



I agree.

No. I'm saying he's utterly wrong in his analysis of why people are bloodthirsty and stupid.

I'm not following you. I don't think he was trying to explain why he is bloodthirsty and stupid, he was giving us an ultimatum. "Convert or die." Theirs is one of the few religions that teach this sort of thing.

Your ignorance and generalisation is just as extraordinary as always...

Do these wackos, west-something, with their god-hates-soldiers-because-america-is-gay attitude speak for whole christianity? No, they don't.

But according to you Bin Laden does for Islam, your islamophobia sure is blinding you.

Like we are all living in peace now, right!

I don't understand what you mean.

The wackos don't speak for all Christianity (who roundly, widely, and fervently rejects and condemns said whacko's) any more than Bin Laden represents all Muslims - who unfortunately do not roundly, widely, and fervently reject and condemn what Bin Laden and his ilk promotes enough.

You didn't introduce it in a context of Bin Laden or explain it as an ultimatum, nor was it clarified to be either before I responded.

I responded to it as a proposal, not as an ultimatum.

And if it's treated as a proposal, it's stupid.

If it's treated as an ultimatum, it's the most absurd ultimatum I've ever heard. "Abandon your entire irrationally-held worldview in favor of mine- or else!"? What next? "Believe in pixies- or else!"?

I did, both the thread and the title. But going back again, I see I misunderstood part of the thread.

However, your response was rather uncalled for.

Do you feel the same for all those who would force us to convert into Christianity or any other religion?

Hi RJ, I would appreciate it if you not attrbute my username to text I did not write. Please edit your post.

Thanks,

Eric

What do you mean you did not write it? It is part of your answer in post #24

Here's a quote of the entire post.If you would like me to edit my post in order for you to retract what you said, I would completely understand that and would agree to do so in the spirit of friendship.

From what I have seen the general Muslim communities both here in Australia and over there in the USA do indeed "roundly, widely, and fervently reject and condemn what Bin Laden and his ilk promotes". It is the central argument in debate about hatred towards Islam.

Militant fundamentalism is a completely separate phenomenon to Islam. And there are militant fundamentalists in Christianity too - whether you choose to accept that or not. Probably in Judaism too, though I'm not personally familiar with it.

My apologies - I must have misread it...somehow...two or three times in a row. I stand corrected.

Yes. If they are going to such lengths as murdering innocents in terrorist attacks, I want them eliminated. Don't you?

But that's a hypothetical question - I know a lot of Christians can be a pain in the ass, knocking on doors, handing out pamphlets, etc, but I'm not aware of any Christians doing anything like blowing up Pizza parlors, bus stops, etc to scare people into converting.

I am aware of what the Muslim extremists are doing, as are you, so lets talk about the real world.

So is Muslim extremism a symptom of a bad religion, or a consequence of the culture and environment of people who happen to be Muslim? Was Christian extremism and brutality caused by the religion or just fueled by it?

In my view religion is the excuse and the cover that allows mindless pursuit of the unthinkable. It doesn't cause it. So the "real world" is a place that requires religion to have well-defined limits out of the public sphere. That's why it's so scary to see a movement to nationalize the Christian religion and remove the barriers between church and state. Outright murderous evil isn't as big a problem with Christianity right now. But start removing one barrier at a time and it will be.