I've been discussing the freemasons the entire thread - a lot of it Yaaaarrrrrggggggggggggggg and I were discussing religious aspects of the club and reactions to it. If you don't like it, tough shit. Put me and the people who like arguing with me on ignore. You'll still be able to see a handful of posts over in the forum games section.

Alright. The thread is officially derailed. Let's get back on topic please.

As I was saying: The Masons had no choice to keep their heads down as they required confirmation from the Pope that they were not heretics.

I can't remember, are you arguing in favor/support of the masons or against them?

You are always arguing Rasczak, to the point that you get so wrapped up in your zeal that you completely lose the plot on what is going on. You will see by my comments that before 1760 (apx) it could be fatal to be a Mason due to the bloody imposition of monotheistic religion.

If it were not for the Masons, there would likely be no motor vehicles, LP's which later became CD's, television and now monitors or even electric light bulbs or anything to power computers at all.

However, unfortunately, a lot of people might think that Graves, Velikovsky, Frazer and Einstein should have been burned at the stake! (To mention but a few).

In what manner do you think our society would have developed without the public input of all (and more) of the above? Our Cosmos is not so black and white, not so "argue left or right." Well, not at least until you grow up.

They should be almost done with the instant teleportation system and intrastellar laser by now. What's taking them so long?

The laws of physics and quantum mechanics

I've only been watching this one thus far, but now I have a question. Is it being proposed that because several people that made great discoveries happened to be Freemasons; that the Freemasons should be credited with the discovery?

Sounds like it to me. Silly huh? Maybe Edison had warts - that would mean people with warts are responsible for lighting the world by his logic.

People like you are eating up all their energy.

No. I am saying that the Masons made it possible to be able to study such things, as their study was considered heresy by the church. Not being allowed to study, not being allowed to experiment with nature (as nature belonged to God) = no science.

Hope that helps.

Mostly what alarms me in masonic system, is their way to handle with law, they have command to save brother in case when he might be judged or accused, because their own rules are put over those local laws, it is only in some higher crimes when theoretically they would agree by the law, but you can just guess that this is line drawn in water.

And I don't like either of it that persons who are high ranking priests or bishops, stand same time in church and freemason council, because their doctrine is not basing in evangelic faith but more of occult teachings and self illumination. And this as I believe makes either person lier or then person has not received so much teaching either one of the systems and is deceived by social group around himself to believe that it is actually same thing in both of systems. And many of bishops or priest in the world have converted from inside to be freemasons and outwardly acting as christian , that rises question how much it affects in theology in institutes or universities and also in bible translation work.

And many questions rises also of changing laws to fit better in their visions. When many of judges belong to freemasonic religion, as I have understood this is another occupation where members are actively fished in their groups, as other important occupations of which masons can affect and mold society more fitting to their own global vision.

Also concerning to charity if charity is made it is always in some level pleasing to God, but if charity is made to gain respect and in this case when the attention leads toward nonchristian group, it is partially good when some one needy gets help, but in another hand I am afraid of it that the thanks giving goes to Lodge instead of Jesus. " One pastor told once a joke: what is different between communist and Jesus? communist shares that which doesn't belong to him, but Jesus shares that which belongs to Him." this I don't mean that communism would be worse than be capitalist.

I believe that most of them wont understand the whole picture which is played, and they are like human shield with their ignorance, to them who are inside in secret doctrines. It is 33 levels in masonic faith and most of members stay under level three as I have learned. But this doesn't be any ranking of persons surrender or deepness in masonic truths, they also have honor 33 degrees. Also I understand that many who belong in system are honest law following persons and they want to help society to be better place, they have high moral and often they are confronted very badly and this also makes their faith toward brotherhood stronger.

It is said that they have bibles, yes and they have other books too, like from authors: Alistair Crowley, Eliphas Levi etc. These two things wont combine as Jesus says in Matthew 12 ( I shall add these verses because all of readers probably wont have bible )

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: "
26 "And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? "
27 "And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. "
28 "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. "
29 "Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house. "
30 "He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
"
31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. "
32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. "
33 "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. "
34 "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. "
35 "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. "
36 "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. "
37 "For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

This sitate from Matthew is also my comment toward freemasonic concept of divided god named: jahbulon one side jahve and one side baal.

As a christian I believe that the final address, after one leaves this time and steps to eternity is different for those who believe in Jesus Christ, than to those who have adapted wholly or partially those occult insights of freemasonry. It is up to you do you believe in Jesus or not, but don't ever believe that christianity and freemasonic religion belongs together even there is people who were cross in their necks or even tattooed saints or crosses in their skin, they are not necessarily believers of Christ and many who pray openly in front of people are not necessarily believers. Religion ( the system made around faith ) or belonging in some club wont save you it is personal relation with Jesus through rebirth, asking forgiveness of sins repenting and asking Him to fill your heart.

As last words, I want to say that Jesus is not just for the dead in heaven, many have get really wrong picture of living faith with living God. Jesus has given abundant joy also in this life and you don't have to go with weird people to lift up snakes in desert or live in monastery with nuns . or having strange blood rituals in catacombs with other "boys" . Those things wont make you any better in front of God. As Jesus himself said as His last words: "it is finished"

That is a very long reply! I have not read the section on dogma (Matthew) as dogma is of no use in an exploration of The Cosmos.

As for your dualistic insecurity regarding such "words" as the occult, and your bravado in mentioning the likes of Crowley and Levi, I would politely suggest that you do the same as Moses did: Spend some time on top of a mountain at night, look up (if you dare) and see what gave birth to us.

Jesus also said "Know thyself." If you can figure out what that means, then you are on your way to becoming human.

Ancient Laws to apply to life:
1. Religion did not create The Cosmos.

2. Religion hides the whole being from The Cosmos.

3. The development of our race is not the responsibility of a "god", it is your responsibility : The responsibility of every individual.

We all have such a long way to go in life, in such a short time. if you wish to slumber (sleep basically) in the intoxication of religion, that is of course, your choice.

All the best!

EDit* Concerning "blood rituals"........errm,..........the "body and blood of Christ".................seems a bit ritualistic to me?? LOL

I am not fond of arguing, not at all, and your statement were interesting, I just feel that answering in it would go in another direction and it would not stay under subject of free masons. But it would be interesting to continue under of some other title.

Hey anv !

I appreciate your reply, but I do not find religious discussion to be beneficial. However, with such a balanced attitude, I am sure you will find people akin to such discussion.

I wish you all the best!