Fair enough. I would agree - "evangelical" atheists are as bad as evangelical Christians. But you don't think that Christians could have similar doubts?

No. It boils down to faith for Christians. You might have seen this, it's been around for a while...

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:16.

Done here.

When i said 'hate' in my previous post, i mean the more extreme Christians.
For the rest, i agree with c.dric, nbound. We do not the approach Christians take on forming their opinion, and we do not like the opinion that follows for many of them, but we can tolerate by far most them.

Same goes for Muslims, perhaps we can ratio-wise tolerate less of them, but still, many of them are to be tolerated. And many Christians do not tolerate these people. They are creating hostility for way insufficient reason.

do you have a tiny voice inside your head telling you that you might be wrong on santa ? i don't.

i do realize that there is a lot about our world that we can't explain yet. i wonder what those explanations could be. i wonder how much we'll be able to find out in the time we have left ... i got more than enough to wonder about.

i'm not going to lose any sleep about being wrong on god or santa as there's not one tiny shred of evidence that would be indicate that they're anything more than fantasy.

Luckily, you don't have to agree, thats how discussion works

But, my post isn't entirely baseless. I don't have any kind of studies to reference or psychiatrists to quote, but it's based simply in actually knowing someone in each of my categories. There are probably lots more groupings, but I didn't try to guess at them because then it would have been baseless.

My favorites are two friends that I don't even know where to group. Both are atheists, and both go to christian churches, sing hymns, bow their heads when called to prayer, etc etc etc. One is because she dearly loves her southern baptist grandmother and she doesn't think granny could handle the news, and the other because he is afraid that he might be left out of an inheritance if he tells his dad he isn't "a believer".

Seems like good enough reasons to me. Now they both better hope nobody who knows about these situations gets angry at them and squeals.

Now that's just funny.

not in this forum, at least, so why argue with muslims as an atheist as they don't open threads in this forum telling evolution is a hoax.

most of us live in the western world and are more concerned about christianity because it's what we see when you see a dollar for example.

Also christianity is by far the largest religion on earth so it's the 1st target for atheists.

1. Being skeptical about evolution isn't forcing religion on someone.

2. I'm not going to worry about any religion because of its size, just their actions.

3. I could be wrong, but I think Islam is the largest religion on Earth. Or maybe its the fastest growing religion. Maybe both - I don't remember for sure.

Edit: What is Christian on a dollar?

"In God we trust"?

Well, as a mostly Christian country writing "In God we Trust" on your money is wtf in my opinion...


yes, Islam is the fastest growing religion but only has about 1 billions followers whereas Christianity has over 2 billions.

There are about as much catholics as muslims of all denominations together.

edit: before you ask only about 20% of muslims are arabs.

In all honesty, I can't defend putting "In God We Trust" on money - I'm surprised they still do it. But I'm not going to lead the charge to get it removed either. It definately isn't a Christian thing - Jews and Muslims "trust in God" too. And it definately isn't something I'm going to lose any sleep over - even if I were a militant atheist, I can't imagine letting it bother me when there are so many other things to be concerned about.

And I wasn't going to ask there Nostrodomus.

hmm what, I don't understand.

And it's Nostradamus or Michel de Nostredame

My spelling sucks. The guy who supposedly could predict the future.

One thing that map fails to capture is the spirit of the area. For example, Florida is bursting with Baptists who generally try to control the area politics and communities. Yet their actual numbers may be as low as that map says. So it feels very 'Baptist', even moreso than areas where the numbers may be higher. At the same time, there is a large population that isn't Baptist or republican, but it tends to feel like the minority because it is on the defense most of the time. It is a matter not just of numbers but of tone and tolerance in various areas.

To put things in perspective (perhaps?) for the non-US people here, and even for the less-travelled US people, here's my take on religion in the US. I've travelled through and lived in quite a few portions of the US, coast to coast. Here's my impression.

Probably the larger, younger segment of the US labels themselves Christian, one form or another. But they don't go to church regularly, just maybe on holidays. They don't read and quote the Bible. They view religion as kind of quaint, and they don't really use it to navigate their lives much. The popular culture (movies, TV, music, drugs and alcohol) is a much larger factor in their lives. Young families might attend church more when the kids are small, if at all, but after that it is replaced with other activities. Kids are often exposed to religions because many are now sent to private schools, which tend to be religion-based. Yet often the parents are just interested in the private education, and view the religious training as a helpful moral component.

Another segment is the older religious folk in smaller communities. They adhere a little more to religion, but not particularly fundamentalist. It's more of a social gathering place, and a place to engage the deeper questions of their lives. The minister is like their psychologist/therapist, marriage counselor, etc. And the church is the place for death - a place to view death, mourn those who have died, and give meaning to death for the aging. I grew up in a community like this and church (Lutheran) was actually pretty good. There wasn't a lot of judgment or fire and brimstone sermons. It was mostly exploring the genuine teachings of Jesus, and a place for social gathering in the community. Even as my spirituality evolved considerably, I never had much problem with my early teachers. They were a bit narrow, but generally good people who meant well. I still have no problem with the teachings of Jesus, although I now understand they have been distorted to a large degree in the Bible.

Then you have the Baptists. These folks and families do tend to be more judgmental, and engage in a lot of local politics and witch-hunts. There is more fear in this religion. This tends to be prevalent in the south and midwest. It varies by area - some are more tolerant than others. In some areas, you find yourself literally surrounded by Baptist churches. Mostly they are nice people, unless you find yourself in a group they have labelled bad - then they will attack you. They tend to view themselves as the moral authority of the community (and not just of the Baptists in the community, but of everyone).

The Catholics are interesting - many of them don't take their religion all that seriously, and disobey it wildly. But when pressed against the wall they'll confess their faith and even judge others who don't, particularly in front of family. Most of them seem to have a lot of fear in regard to religion, but a lot of them avoid religion in their personal lives because they don't find it all that pleasant or helpful. They view it as a scary joke.

Then you have the Ned Flanders - the more fundamentalist, born-again christians that want to change the world, and are quite politically active. They get a lot of attention because they are noisy, but their actual numbers are not huge. They are the more radical element in the culture. Many view them as nut jobs. Even these people tend to be pretty nice and mean well, but again if you fall into a group they despise, they will attack you and discriminate against you. They tend to be very hard-headed - they know it all, and aren't exactly open-minded. This group has adherents and converts from teenagers right into the senior citizen crowd.

You also have the new-agers, who don't get as much press in corporate media but it's a large and growing segment in many areas, evidenced by book sales and the growth of organic food. They tend to be quite serious about their spirituality, but it varies a lot, and doesn't adhere to religion much. (I put myself in this group overall.)

Then you have a lot of little religions (little in the US) - buddhists, muslims, jews, etc. They more or less keep to themselves and aren't typically out for blood or converts.

Atheists are somewhat common, but don't usually go out of the way to announce themselves as atheist.

So overall I don't see the US as particularly religious. It is prominent in politics, but this is mostly BS - part of an image politicians try to create. As they see themselves as people of authority, they co-opt religion since it is a source of authority. Religion appears more in corporate media than in daily life in the US. The actual daily culture and activities in the US are actually pretty soulless - there is a lack not just of religion but of spirituality in general. It revolves around material wealth, possessions, and activities with little focus on spirituality. The exception is some popular music - that is probably the closest to a new religion. The corporate world has largely succeeded in dumbing down the American population, and this includes spirituality.

I view the people in US culture as being somewhere between religion and spirituality. They have abandoned religion in many ways and for many reasons - they just don't believe in it. But they haven't yet found its replacement - spirituality. As a result there is much depression, particularly in the youth. A lack of purpose and meaning to their lives, and a lack of sense of belonging to anything. It is a generation of wayfarers. They won't be going back to the old religions.

Feel free to disagree with me - these are just my impressions.

One other group I should address specifically - the elite. The politicians, journalists, prominent business and corporate leaders, etc. These people USE religion, but not to guide their personal lives. They use it like a kind of robe. It identifies them as one of the elite, and maintains their image among 'the commoners'. They are the priests of the culture, and see themselves as above the common culture. Being religious is part of the whole image.

I think people outside the US see a lot of this posturing and think the average US citizen is like that. In my view they are not, but most of them buy the image. On one hand they know their leaders are corrupt, but on the other hand they try to hold them to these ideals which they themselves do not really believe in. It is some kind of twisted play-acting. The judgmentalness of it all does inform much of the political and social debate in the US, but not much of it filters into actual daily life, except in the form of laws and rules that are circumvented in any way possible by most people.

nice post and an interesting read.

The common public in Europe thinks of the US of a very fundamental Christian country these days, what I think is due to the whole stuff about Creationism (Museum, and the stuff with Kansas' schools [it's Kansas, isn't it]) and the speeches of Bush Jr.

So it might differ from reality but that's how the US is seen these days around here by many.

An example is the "In God we trust" on the Dollar whereas Darwin is printed on the English Pound.

Well we have a lot of churches here but they are very old and there is nothing like the american mega churches or a bible belt.


EDIT: Oh, one of our biggest parties in Germany are the Christian Conservative Social Democrats and the last time one of them combined politics with religion he was thrown out and politically killed by the press. It was a christian party about 80 years ago today it only uses the name.

If you talk about religion in public people usually think you're an idiot or mentally ill. I think it has to do with 67% of the citizens calling themselves atheists.

oh and lol, according to a poll in the news 90% like the dalai lama more than the pope and the pope is German.

There is certainly that element - particularly among the politicians and fundamentalists. They are a rich, powerful minority that has full access to the media and government. For the more common people, they are largely ignored, avoided, and dismissed. Maybe dismissed too much. Because they tend to be politically active (locally and nationally) they populate and influence the government. Many people, particularly young people, just don't give a f--- about such things, to be frank. They usually don't even know what's going on in politics and government. "Politics is boring". What they do know comes from short little sound bites on the news. That is changing a bit as people are realizing it does affect them. So there is a growing liberal base, but it is largely invisible in the corporate media.

I can believe that. One impression I get from speaking with people around the world - they imagine the US to be more homogenous than it is. The US is physically very large - over 2000 miles wide. The states are probably more varied than some of the countries of Europe, in terms of cultures. As you go into various areas the social 'rules' can change dramatically. You also have cultures not based on area, such as internet cultures. The big thing now is text messaging on cell phones. Teenagers will spend hours TMing people around the country - they send thousands and thousands of them. Often they are more involved in that world than in the world around them, which they ignore as much as possible. It's hard to even have a face-to-face conversation with them - they keep getting interrupted with an incoming TM and will put YOU on hold.

So the US is quite a mix. There are the mega-churches like you describe. I'm in Colorado and there are some of these not far from me in Denver and Colorado Springs. But the most I've seen of such people is occasionally being handed a flyer at an arena event, and their obvious influence in elections. But if you go an hour north into Boulder, you're in the hippie crowd. I was there the other day and some kids asked me and my friend if we wanted to make love with them in the street. Turns out they were writing the word "LOVE" with coins on the sidewalk, and wanted us to add to it. That's Boulder in a snapshot.

And not all the subcultures are represented in the media, movies, etc. In fact some don't want to be - they keep very much to themselves.

I think the average American couldn't give a rat's ass about evolution - they're FAR more interested in sports and movies. The whole big creation debate is mostly a corporate and fundamentalist creation - people yap about it in the media, and people who actually read the news will talk about it on the internet, but a guy on the street just doesn't care. He'd probably think you were nuts if you asked him what he thought, if he even knew what you were referring to.

If you're a politician no one will give it a second thought - or even really hear it. In any other context they'll realize you're 'religious' and dismiss it as that. (In general.)

As for Europe - that is where the REAL religions and really religious people are. It's where the pope lives! The big cathedrals. Most Americans probably think Europeans are far more religious than Americans.

Just thought id correct, its not on the Pound Coin its on a ten pound note

IMO politics and religion should have absolutely no bearing on each other, 95% of politicians here noone knows their personal beliefs, unless the press launch a campaign to find out.

Well, that's strange, this I don't care mentality seems more common in the US on this matter.

It's usually that the public and the media make a big fuss about it if someone brings religion into politics or a religious leader like the pope comments on politics.

Usually the media starts flaming the religious. I'm not religious but I don't think it's okay to flame someone just because he's religious.


Someone posted some numbers a while ago by some EU-agency where only 37% or something of Germans believed there is a god whereas about 90% of the US-Americans believed there is a god.


Are you serious or is that what the US public thinks?

hrhr, yes the pope's living in Europe, there's even pope beer brewed in his little hometown in bavaria. Some years ago the pope admitted the evolution theory is true and he believes in it, so if you're a "true catholic" you can't believe in creationism anymore.

Even if you're running a christian private school in Germany you are not allowed to tell them intelligent design is true as you have to follow strict regulations to be able to keep your license as a school.

In fact if you still do, the people responsible are going in jail. even the parents if they knew about it.

There was such a case a couple of years ago where methodist teachers and parents got about 8 years in custody each for that.

It's true, we have a lot of religious buldings here, some are over thousand years old. But well, they aren't that frequented and would be closed and destroyed if they wouldn't be protected by the UNESCO as cultural heritage sites. So we have a lot of totally empty churches around where I live which get subsidised so they don't fall apart.


thanks