Humor always contains a core of truth.

All truths begin as blasphemies.

I don't care about animals, I care FOR animals. I care for the illusion, because it is me, and I am it. My caring for animals is me caring for a part of my larger self. If I want to create a joyful illusion, I 'do unto others as I would have it done unto me', because 'what goes around come around'.

If I want to create a hellish experience, I create a hellish experience for others (people, animals, etc). Yet that is something that one tends to stop doing as awareness grows.

You're right, "they" are not really "there". There is no there, and there is no they. There is only me, here, now.

Exactly. Your understanding that it is only a movie lessens your suffering. You enjoy the drama, but if it gets to be too much, you remind yourself 'it's only a movie'. Were you to forget this, it could become a terrible experience.

Likewise, as people have forgotten life is an illusion, they have created lives that are terrible experiences. Life was never meant to be terrible, but joyful.

Life is not a movie. That was an analogy to help you understand the creation and relief of suffering based on how "real" you believe an experience to me.

Life is an illusion. But we are not mere actors, pretending to be what we are. We are BEING what we are - choosing to be a particular object within the illusion. We can do this mindfully or mindlessly. There are many levels of awareness.

Just because I speak of higher levels of mastery, does not mean I have fully realized all of those levels. It is possible to understand mastery before it is realized. What determines the true level of mastery of a being is not what that being knows (as is commonly believed), but what that being demonstrates of what it knows.

Many is the person who came to great understandings but never put them into practice.

Often I perceive pain as illusion. In that case, there is no suffering involved. In fact, often there is no pain, because when you see it as illusion, you tend to go another way that doesn't create pain. (See the animals comment above.) In some case, I still get drawn into the illusion, forgetting it is an illusion to a large degree. Rarely do I forget completely - there is usually a layer of awareness that it is an illusion even as I am suffering.

Not sure I understand your question. But I don't get 'in fights' with people I love - that is a contradiction I rarely demonstrate anymore.

I thought I did. If you still feel I haven't, or if you haven't understood the answer, you'll need to clarify the question for me.

Meant by whom?

I think the viewpoint that "only I exist" is rather dangerous. Perhaps not in your hands, but what if it were raping small children that was the illusion I desired? If I could justify it to myself by saying that they don't really exist, that they're just part of the illusion that I have concocted, then I think I'd be much more likely to commit such crimes.

I suppose I've "forgotten" that life is an illusion (if you can forget something that you didn't ever believe), but somehow my life has managed to be pretty joyful nonetheless.

There's just yet another difference between you and I. I don't think I could love someone that I couldn't fight with from time to time.

I meant that you keep on talking about how everyone else needs to expand/open their minds to reach some kind of broader understanding, but if everyone's universe is simply an illusion, then each person HAS expanded his or her mind to their own version of broader understanding. The two ideas are conflicting. In order for there to be some sort of level of higher knowledge, then there needs to be some sort of metric with which to compare these states of being. If each person is living purely within their own consciousness, then there is no metric and these states of understanding are by nature incomparable.

Again, NO. We do not know anything to be absolutely true, that's the point. We can disprove something (not absolutely, but moreso than we can prove something) to the point where we can remove it from the realm of possibility or probability.

So it is an illusion that I live? I am the direct effect of my mother's conceiving me, that was the "cause" of my existence. In effect, my parents are a cause, and I am the effect. If I have children, that makes me a cause and them an effect. If you are going to debate that I do not exist, or that I am an illusion, I will counter that I am very real, and very really typing this.

Consider REAL LIFE, not cartoons. If I throw a brick through a window, I caused the effect of the brick flying, which caused the effect of the window breaking. I am thus the root cause of the window breaking. The difference between a cartoon and real life is that the window cannot simply be redrawn in real life, it must be replaced. Plus, you can't stab someone with cartoon glass shards, but you can with real ones.

Your "perception" continues to astound me. How did you perceive this?

I'll wait for that day.

See baby analogy above.

Please cite for me an example of something that defies causality, besides the "Big Bang" or creation (of the universe by a "higher power"). I look around me right now, and I see a phone, computer, glass of water, picture frame, and maybe these are just "illusions", although the fact that I can make calls, use the internet, drink the water and hold the picture make me think otherwise. On top of that, the phone does not dial itself, I do, the computer does not operate itself, I do, the water doesn't spontaneously move to my mouth, I must pick it up, and the picture did not take itself, I did. For every effect there is a cause, and if this is simply an illusion, it still operates in the "normal" way.

"In the skull" was intended as a joke. And while we experience things that are not part of our body, this does not in any way make our consciousncess without boundaries. To experience these things, they must somehow be interpreted by my mind, be it in sight, hearing, taste, smell, touch, or even thought and dream. Thus, my consciousness does not extend beyond my body. As for the thought of a universal consciousness, I don't even know where to begin. How about "no"?

No one can communicate with their car, simple as that. You cannot "communicate" with an inanimate object. Perhaps my narrow view of reality is confined to that which is "real". Is that narrow? Not at all, there are many, many, many aspects of the real world.

You make a lot of judgments.

^^^ Utter bullshit, sorry. I did not say the universe needed something, and if you read my rephrasing you would realize that. Don't put words in my text boxes.

It is both. Discovery for the living, creation for the yet-to-be.

And you refuse to believe that two people may experience the same thing (and I do mean may, but it certainly is possible for two people to be so in-tune that they experience something the same way).

The difference is, most of the things I believe in don't need actualizing. I believe in, like you said before, things I can see and hear (and as I added, things I can smell, taste and touch). The things I believe in that are immaterial are confined to my own consciousness, emotions and the like, and my emotions don't travel throughout the universe to all other conscious beings. I already understand why you are saying what you are, but I believe it to be nonsense.

By the higher consciousness that created it. IOW, by itself, us.

This is where words begin to fail, because we are describing both the relative and absolute realm. In the absolute realm, there is one consciousness that knows everything. This energy condenses into matter to create the physical universe, but also exists as pure consciousness (the spiritual realms).

We are not separate from this consciousness. We are the universe experiencing the absolute universe through the realm of the relative. You can only experience some aspect of 'the all' if the opposite aspect exists. You can only experience yourself as tall if 'short' exists.

Thus the absolute universe 'divides' into opposites, or varying degrees, in order to create the realm of relative, where we exist. Hot, cold. Tall, short. Happy, sad. Space, time. It doesn't really divide, nor do we really exist. It is an illusion, a trick of perception.

Human lives were created to experience what is true of the realm of the absolute: unity. Within this feeling of unity is what humans call joy or love.

Thus my statement that life was created for joy not terror. Joy (unity) is the truth. Terror (fear, disunity) is merely what-is-not. (The illusion of what-is-not is created in order that the reality of what-is may be experienced.)

By being mindful that the illusion is an illusion, and being mindful of its purpose, (IOW not forgetting and thinking it is real), we can enjoy the realm of the relative, human life, even when we are experiencing what-is-not (the "dark side").

That is why people enjoy horror movies and being scared. There is a genuine joy there, because on some level they are remembering that they are playing, and play is fun. When that is forgotten, it is no longer fun.

As to your question, we are creating all of this, on many levels. Most people are not conscious of most of these levels - they create subconsciously, without awareness. Yet our consciousness goes far beyond our human awareness, and we create from all of these levels. One of our creations is 'human life'.

Make sense?

You two are taking what voice says to extremes in that 'illusion' is not real, when any illusion can be as real as anything else. Your illusion is your frame of reference and the myths or beliefs you accept as real.

Everything is an illusion to the extent it is a creation of ones will. Many follow along with the will of the majority, but it is still an illusion.

The three of you are intelligent people. Don't allow your frustration to lower the level of your dialogue, just take a break and gather your thoughts if you need to. You are all doing great, and I am learning lots from this thread. Thanks for the education..

You ask good questions.

One who is truly aware that it's 'all me' (all parts of myself) would not generally choose to harm others, because that would be harming myself. Why would I rape or harm myself? It is seen for the insanity it is. I would only bring myself injury. As for the fact that injury is an illusion, what makes people want to harm others is fear. Remembering that it is all an illusion dispels fear, it does not create it. Not only do you not wish to injure others, but you fear injury to yourself less as well, so there is even less reason to want to injure another. Acts of violence and desperation (such as rape) become far less likely in such an awareness. (Less desperation because there is an understanding that any aspect of the illusion may be created at will - you don't really NEED it.)

One who understands that all is one, that we are all connected, and what I do for others, I do for myself, is inclined to treat others with love - it is only natural.

In fact the opposite is true of what you're saying. One who imagines himself as separate is likely to harm others, because he imagines that 'that's not me'. This thought of separation is in fact what creates all violence. It is insanity, but lacks awareness to see it as insane.

All people use the process of creation to create their experience. Some use it consciously; most use it largely unconsciously. Even in the unconscious case, if their choices are informed by wisdom, such as treating others well, then their creation will be joyful.

You can go from "pretty joyful" to other levels of being by increasing your awareness of the process you're using to create your life.

I didn't say I couldn't fight. I don't choose to.

Again, a good and subtle question.

First, one person's consciousness is not separate from any other's. Further, so-called 'individuals' form group consciousnesses (including families, couples, communities, nations, worlds, and other forms), and group consciousness creates collective "realities", or experiences.

Your 'individual' consciousness may be more or less aware of what one of your group consciousnesses has created, and thus may move to higher levels of awareness of it.

Also, your 'individual' consciousness extends to many levels, only some of which are you aware. Thus your conscious awareness may expand to include more of your consciousness, and what that consciousness has created. As this occurs, your power or ability to alter that creation increases. You begin to see more of the fabric of your life, and how it was woven together.

In a sense, you cannot compare two people and declare one is more advanced than another, because their destinations are different. Who can say who is ahead or behind when they're going to different places? However, there are 'common realities' which are created collectively, and awareness of these can be compared from one 'individual' to another. Also, there are similarities between the paths of individuals, and these may be contrasted.

On some level, we all know everything. There is no place our awareness, or consciousness, ends. It is a question of what our mind or ego has temporarily forgotten, or filtered.

Nor is this forgetting a disorder. It is all part of a larger process. We could not be having the experience we are now having if we remembered 'the all of it'. Hence the advice enjoy the mystery, and don't seek to unravel it all at once. Let it unfold in time.

What you are saying is that you are not absolutely disproving. That is what I said - you can neither (absolutely) prove nor disprove anything.

Nor do I think that is what most people believe when they speak of disproving. They believe they can do it in an absolute sense. ("This theory is disproven" means it's absolutely wrong to them.)

Your baby discussion is just another form of your typing in the forum discussion - causality. As I said, you can have an experience of causality (things may APPEAR causal), but this is an illusion. An illusion means a thing appearing to be something it is not.

You are not "really" typing. You might say you are having a dream (experience) that you are a human typing. It is a created effect - you are creating the effect with your mind (consciousness).

I realize that is your experience of what is happening, but it is not what is really happening. The brick is not breaking the window, anymore than the cartoon brick breaks the window. You might say the window breaks, but you can't say why. It just does. It might easily not break, and the brick will go right through it, if a person with a different perspective throws and witnesses the brick. You would call this a miracle, but it is no less a miracle than the window breaking. It is merely a different outcome, one of an infinite number of possibilities.

That's the best I can do for you. I'm not saying you have to agree this is the way it works. But at present you don't even seem to be able to imagine what I am discussing. You are not able to consider that reality may operate more as a cartoon, where the frames are created by the mind non-causally. (And that's okay - you don't need to understand.)

Oh? How do you know this? Can you PROVE it?

Can you prove that you can stab all real people with real glass? Of course you can't.

The point is, you are saying "this is the way it is because this is the way it is". You are not proving it is so, because you can't. And in fact it is not always so.

The world is full of examples of non-causality. I realize you dismiss these examples as religious myth, folklore, or bad science. This is one of the ways you reinforce and create the reality you choose - where it obeys causality.

In fact the universe doesn't need to obey any human beliefs about it, and there are those of us who experience that. You would claim we are deluded or lying. Thus you do not experience it that way.

Directly. As I said, there is no place where one consciousness ends. Our consciousness encompasses the entire physical universe and beyond, big and small, and it is possible to expand one's awareness to perceive any aspect of the universe directly.

How? It is a matter of going into a state of expanded awareness. There are many methods of doing so, such as various forms of meditation.

Indeed. It is a very convincing illusion. We designed it to be.

As you say, so shall it be (for you).

Prove it.

Prove it.

That is why I said "narrow" was a relative observation. From my and others' perspectives, yours is rather narrow. Narrow is not bad. It is a choice. You prefer a narrow reality, a simple and tightly confined one. You're still trying to make sense of that one. As you do, you will eventually decide 'there must be more than this', and you will earnestly expand your awareness.

For you, part of the illusion will have ended. Then you will try to explain this to others who do not yet see it, and will realize that while for you the illusion has ended, for others it goes on.

You're confusing an observation with a judgment, because you have an ego investment in being "advanced" or "open-minded".

Sameness, or duplication, does not exist. Life does not duplicate. It creates. Everything is unique, including every perspective. Similarity does exist.

"Two people" may experience the same thing, but only at the level where they are one - a singular group consciousness. So long as you call them "two people", you are not speaking of that level of awareness.

That is a pretty good assessment of your level of consciousness and awareness. However, your consciousness and emotions do "travel". Really, they are simply everywhere at once. The universe is non-local.

An illusion is an effect - something which appears to be one thing, while in fact being something else. A magician, or illusionist, creates illusions using various methods of deception and distraction. He makes use of the fact that the way something is observed can make it appear something it is not. When seen from another angle, you see how the trick is done, and you say "that was just an illusion - it wasn't what I thought it was".

Some illusions can seem very real, especially if there are many people who believe them to be so. This creates cultural myths that can be very powerful, and difficult to see beyond.

We are all illusionists, and sometimes part of this process is to forget how our tricks are done. Then we remember them and applaud ourselves.

Some people enjoy the illusion, and do not want to see or remember how it is being done. They believe this would spoil the enjoyment for them.

Other people begin to ask questions. They want to know how it is done, but at the same time they still don't want to lose the enjoyment. So they are somewhat conflicted. Their mind is open to a degree, but at the same time they will deny what you're telling them, and refuse to look at what you're showing them.

Still other people are ready to see through the illusion. They are done with the drama, not because it wasn't enjoyable, but because they simply are ready to move on. These people are future magicians. Their new fun is to create even greater illusions.

The following article just came to my attention, and offers some interesting perspectives on what we've been talking about. Imagine if by perceiving the universe, you are 'sending signals' back to the Big Bang itself to tell the universe how to form itself up to and including the present.

Quantum Mechanics is continuing to conduct experiments which explore the surprising relationship between human perception and the physical universe.

If you are a New Scientist subscriber to can get to the 'The Flexi-Laws of Physics' article by Paul Davies here...
The flexi-laws of physics - fundamentals - 30 June 2007 - New Scientist

Or you can find an unofficial copy here...
The flexi-laws of physics

i think god's either a big jerk or he doesn't exist. aside from occasionally finding it entertaining fodder for bitter discussion, i pretty much don't care one way or the other.

I guess I'm a skeptic, seeing as atheism = 100% disbelief, and religion = 100% belief, and neither can be proven. As far as I'm concerned humans really haven't figured much out and likely never will. It's a wonder that I trust anything at all really, but I make an exception being as I only have ever so much time and can't go around verifying everything I hear ...

Hard atheist. Or for those wondering what that means exactly, I "know" there is no god in the same way I "know" the sun will rise tomorrow. However, should the sun not rise, or should it rise in, say, the west, I would be willing to reconsider my understanding universe based on these new facts.

If forced to declare myself, I like to think of myself as an agnostic pagan. I'm really much closer to athiest, but, hmm how to explain. I feel that nature is as close to a 'god' as there is, and that being outside, out in the woods is the closest thing to religon that I have. My beliefs are vaguely paganish, thus the pagan. But I don't REALLY think there is a god/goddess, thus the agnostic

Atheist : greek origin word. a means without. theist/theology of or pertaining to religion ist being the humanizing suffix. Thus an atheist is one who is without theology. That would be me. An agnostic is an atheist who ponders theology without prescribing to it. "Gnosti" to know.