no, because of my study of the bible I consider it to be true. Religion does not dictate what I do, I reach my own conclusions.

I'm done arguing, I'm going to stand in the corner and twiddle my thumbs.

you looking for a thumb race?

YOUR ON

No I'm going to be an innocent bystander.

So I could pick a book and study it, and if it makes sense then I can call it truth?

...wait a minute... isn't that what happened with Scientology?

All this aside, it doesn't make sense to me that you can base facts on something unless it is a fact itself. Your own definition of a fact:
Is it an objective reality that the bible is the word of God? You claim to have had personal experience that proves to you the existence of God. Is that your only evidence that the bible is a "fact"? What were these personal experiences, anyway? Must have been pretty convincing.

Evidence that the Bible is God's Word


1. It claims to be.

Well, I can claim to be God myself, which does not transform me in God, you know, claims have to be proven.

2. It tells the sinful truth of mankind

People has always been like this, just like any kind of animal. This is the natural law, eat or being eaten, the strongest win, and so on.

3. Archaeology is in agreement witht the Bible.

Also, there are archeological findings in Egypt, which don't make the Egipcian Mithology true. As I said, the Bible contains the history of a civilization mixing history with legend.

4. The Bible is scientifically correct

No, it isn't. It has some of the knowledge of the ancient Mesopotamia, but it has some corrections and some incorrections, just like any other Mythology.

5. The Bible was miracously written

There is a way to write a book in 1500 years and with 40 people: One writes something at year 0 then at year 40 somone reads it and completes and extends the book, then at year 120 someone reads it and completes and extends the book and so on during not only 1500 years, but for 10000 years if you want.

6. The world's hatred for the Bible.

First you have to demonstrate that the Bible is the Truth and not some other ancient book like the Greek Mithology or the Egiptian one. Religions are always hated by other religions.

7. World's Hatred for Christians

You are not going to be liked by everyone, no matter what you talk about. You could be talking about the weather and always someone will not like your words. Not to mention that talking about religion is a picky subject, just like talking about politics sign or sports.

8. Attack from false religions

Every religion considers it has the truth and the others are false. Also they attack each other all the time, so nothing new and it's not exclusive to the monotheist religions.

9. The woeful condition of this world

I've always considered stupid to the people that worship Satan because it implies believing in God and knowing that God represents Good and Satan represents the Bad. Most atheist don't believe in either God or Satan.

10. The existance of Satanism and occult groups

Satanism is a stupid religion, but a religion in the end, just like any other. If the existence of Jew people doesn't prove the existence of God, then the existence of satanic people doesn't prove the existence of Satan.

11. The modern corrupt Bibles

That's what happens when you translate a text from Latin that has been translated from greek that has been translated from hebrew and that has been transmited orally for a long time.

12. Man couldn't write the Bible.

People write books condemning themselves because it gives POWER, and there's nothing that a man want more than power. You claim that everyone is condemned except those that will follow you and...

13. The lie of evolution.

For scientist it HAS been proven. If you don't want to believe in the science it's your problem.

14. The Bible is filled with fulfilled prophecy

Prophecies are all but clear and concise. You know, Nostradamus and a lot of ancient texts predicted the 9/11.

actually the universe had heat and light for the whole time, what happened at 300000 years is that the universe cooled enough to allow space to become transparent, hence light could travel more than a fraction of a particle,
for an analogy,the first 300000 years wouldve been like swimming underwater in custard so u cudnt see a millimetre in front of you. this has supporting evidence in the form of the COBE background readings.

exactly
Nostradamus also predicted the world would end in 2000 kinda which was before 9/11 just showing that if you write enough predictions some of them will come right even if they contradict each other. which is why the bible getting some things right and many others wrong is no proof at all.

not any more than any other theory on the Big Bang. Notice, I didn't say it was fact did I? I was just throwing a little something to think about. No diff than anyone else does. It's ok as long as it's not from the Bible though, eh?



I don't know why christians do that. If they had any understanding of scripture at all they would know better. Experiments are proven by theory. Maybe an accepted theory, rarely actual fact, usually not, though still believed, whether because of consistency or any other formula, it makes not diff. It's still often just theory believed. Everyone has faith in something. My personal experiences are not supposed to mean anything to you, and I never said they should, in fact, I have said they shouldn't.



Well, that's one reason why, but usually it's just people not knowing holistically what the Bible actually says in plain simple language, and not interpreting in in context.




This is completely wrong and shows how much you know about how the Bible came about, language, culture, and history fact.




Many are very clear and concise. Nostradamus was not a biblical prophet he was not 100% accurate. There's that accusation about the bible being wrong again without proof.

I was talking about the Catholic Bible, that is the one that I was taught since I was a child. If you refer to another Bible, then I don't know where your Bible comes from. Maybe your Bible is directly translated from Hebrew or even you know Hebrew yourself. Anyway, for the Catholic their Bible is right and the others are wrong, at least in some parts. The fact that multiple versions of the same book claiming to have the absolute Truth without providing any evidence, and ofently being contradicted by evidence, doen't make any good to the Bible concept itself.

Put a clear and concise prophecy that was not resolved by the Bible itself. I mean, if I read in a book that "X says that Y will occur" and then it says "and Y occured" it doesn't provide a proof. Proofs of that kind must be verified by third parties.
Also, "Babilonia will fall" is not a prophecy at all at least it provided more details. Most Chinese people will tell you that USA will not rule the world forever, and they are not prophets at all.

Evolution, Fact or Fiction?

Fact.

I wasnt directly accusing the bible of being wrong in total, my point was, if you make lots of vaguely worded predictions and a few can be interpreted to be right and many wrong as is the case with both the bible and nostadamus then regarding it as a a reliable source is very foolish.
also ive yet to find any clear or concise prediction from nostradamus

well you say "many wrong" but what does that mean? Unfulfilled or prophecy not quite certain to have been fulfilled is not 'wrong', it's just either not fulfilled or not understood, and again, Nostradamus was not a biblical prophet, he was not 100% accurate. It's very difficult or even impossible to prove any prophecy wrong.

you must mean the Vulgate. Still you are wrong in how it came about as well. They all came about the same way, just different manuscripts used. There is only one english translation w/o error and that is the kjv. Over 95% of all mss overwhelmingly support it. All other NT translations (modern), and the Latin Vulgate, were translated using the minority text. Basically two compilations (Alexandrian text) traced back to the heretic Origen.




The book of Daniel is regarded as the most precise example of biblical prophecy. I have not read most of it, but at a glance this page looks pretty good
The Prophecy of Daniel 11
I'm not writing a book about it here so if you really want to know you'll have to research it yourself.

Any fool knows the USA has all but fallen. Time is short. That doesn't require a prophet, just a little common sense that those that don't learn from history will repeat it.

when i say many wrong, i mean many wrong, it is a fact that the earth didnt end in 1977 or 2000 as ndamus predicted just as examples, or we wouldnt be having this conversation, you make referance to ndamus not being a biblical prophet, but that doesnt give him any more or less weight than them.
the big one they got wrong is the 10,000 years or younger earth. 6000 or whetever they decide to interpret it as or whether its a metaphor, thats not how a fact works, facts arent open to interpretation

also going back to the original title evolution is a fact, no debate, the only unknowns is the how, evolution is a fact, it happens 100% no doubt, natural selection is a theory, commenly held as the how of evolution backed up by a lot of evidence. which other alternatives dont have.

Lets start off with some strange quotes...

WHAT?! Is that actually an honest question? Oh, I get it, you don't know what evolution is... Thats why you have asked that question.

Again: WHAT?! Have you actually studied evolution? Or have it only been summarized to you by you fellow christians?
Ok, it might be true that you have studied evolution, BUT you cannot have understood much at all about it since you actually asked the question in the first quote.

Maybe I'm a bit harsh... The question might not have been quite honest. Maybe you slipped you tung and wrote something wrong. Lets continue...


What are these questions? I have not studied any biology as high as university, but lets answer a bit:
1. yes.
2. This took me 5 minutes to figure out: Say that there is some creature that has the ability to jump ashore for a short while and then jump back, to for example take a bite of some plant. It is dangerous, many of these fish-like creatures die while doing this, but they have to, since the shore is the only place that is relatively free from predators. The ones who survive are those who are best in jumping, surviving if they get stuck, and which has small gills, which does not get clogged/infected or whatever of all the sand/beached creatures/other things that they might get in there when jumping ashore.
This might be completely wrong, however it follows the basic guidelines of evolution and is based on how some animals today hunt/get food (for examples certain dolphins hunt at shores in a similar way as I have described). And this only took 5 minutes to figure out, and an additional 10 to write down, so I guess it is wrong and since I have some trust in biologists I bet they are better than me at this, especially since they got a lot more of the evidence.
3. Err... What are the missing links of evolution? I have never heard of these "missing links" in any other context than when someone is trying to discredit evolution. (just might be something that I have missed, then enlighten me.)
What I guess you mean is places where scientist have not yet, and might never, find the little step that would make everything clear. Well, if a theory works in all cases but a few, and there are many models originated from that theory that equivalently probably explains the evolutionary path, then that should be satisfying enough. And for the evolutionary steps that have not yet been modeled, just wait, there are evolutionary biologists yet that are trying to explain those.
4. Honestly, if evolution fails to have solid evidence in a few cases, and creation have no evidence, nada, nothing to support it, then you should really think about why you have chosen the side you have. And you should here realize that your religious faith is most relevant into every detail.


I will not continue this discussion much further, if you have any direct replies; sure. But we will get nowhere until you actually have any understanding of evolution, and can 'prove' your understanding.

I have to confess: when I first saw this thread, I thought it was sarcastic. If you seriously doubt the veracity of evolution, you have most likely not read enough of the literature. I would suggest the Talk.Origins Archive. Enjoy!

sure it does. They have thus far been 100% accurate, ndamus wasn't even clear enough to be considered a christian prophet, despite the fact that claim has been made again and again. It's apples and oranges when you compare his writings with biblical prophets. The bible does not say and neither has any prophet that the earth is young. Quite the contrary.



I completely agree so I hope you don't think you were arguing with me.

the biblical prophets are most definately not 100% correct, heres just a few predictions that arent true, i can find a lot more if you truely want me to
just as a note

well god seems to fulfil his own criteria and should be executed for it according to his statement.

this was directed at the OP who makes the widely mistaken belief among creationist that evolution itself is only a theory.

Think of God as the Chairman and CEO, and think of Mother Nature as the Chief Operating Officer. Evolution fits within the framework of my faith quite well.