@bns: How so does evolution happen fast? What frame of reference is there?

About Liquid Punk's quote of Michael Shermer, I think it is silly.
4) What does it matter if family values where important in man's past? It is important what we find valuable now.
5) Same as (4) And btw, not [b]at all[/n] convinced humans where not polygamous in our past. That does not mean we should be now. It is a bad thing for society, and men.
6) No it does not prove that capitalism is a good thing. Maybe if we look back, we will think that surviving that way is not desirable for our future. Maybe we can do better. Was it even capitalism? I am sure stealing happened a lot.
Basically it is the same old trying to match your view of reality with your ideas of reality, rather then vice-versa.

I haven't run the numbers because I don't have access to the data that I need. But I'm guessing that if all possible changes to genetic makeup are considered, you've got like a one in one billion or worse chance of mutating into something that is viable. If you want to mutate into something more beneficial it's worse odds. It's happened too many times in too few generations for me to accept that it's merely random (yes, I know natural selection isn't random, but the mutations are according to the prevailing theory). Does that mean the theory is completely wrong? Probably not. In fact, it explains enough things well enough that I would say it's highly unlikely that the entire theory is completely wrong. I do think it needs to be adjusted. Does it occur? Probably so. Do we have an adequate explanation of the mechanism? Probably not.

i used to fall for the creationism stuff too. they try to get you to think that to read the Bible literally is the only way to do it, that all evolutionists are inherently atheist, and to be Chrisitian you have to believe in Creationism. None of this is true at all. In my estimate, most Christians believe in evolution. Also, even the early church leaders and others in the Bible have warned to not take the Bible as historically literal. In fact, the creationism movement has become popular only in the last 30 years. The idea of creationism started with Ellen White, the founder of the seventh-day adventist church.

It is impossible to argue with people who believe in god.

Do you know how much time has passed between big bang and first human being walked the earth, or how much time has passed between big bang and temperature dropped to liveable conditions in any place on the universe.

So god waited all those times didn't he, while he could have snapped his finger and bang "universe as it is". I never enjoyed god believers stivking thier noses into science.

I can open any book, from any date and relate anything written in there as a scientific foreshadowing.

When you do that with holy books, then you come to the conclusion (god already informed us about that)

Note: Can you tell me if the standart model of elementary particles is the true theory from your scriptures (they should have it according to your claims, and we would not need to wait for the LHC), or should we succumb to the string theory, or where does it talk about black-body radiation, or swartzchild radius of black holes, or x-ray lithography, or relativity etc... I would be glad to learn all the details about them from you rather than blowing my brains up with working.

What about God? What if it was his design to create a world with evolution? Wouldn't it make sense to see His fingerprints (exaggerated example: evolution got each chance it got) on His creation?

Also, where's evolution's evidence? Inter-specie fossils haven't been found ("yet"). Based on the amount of fossils that have been discovered, there should have been been quite a few convincing inter-specie ones.


I've only just skimmed the conversation, so link me if this has already been discussed.

Evolution has been demonstrated in laboratories using species of bacteria that reproduce in a very short time span. Since generations are very short, it is possible to see the changes in the genome. That is evolution at it's most basic, and is known as "micro-evolution". Macro-evolution, such as can be seen in the fossil record for the horse, also know as "speciation", or the change of one species into another, takes much, much longer, on the order of 10's or 100's of thousands or years, or even millions of years. Something for you to keep in mind is that the firs modern humans only appeared on the planet only around 400k years ago. And for a time, we overlapped with other species, such as homo neanderthalensis and homo erectus. If things had gone just a bit differently, neanderthals would be arguing over whether or not homo sapiens had fit the definition for human.

The whole "man came from monkeys" thing is silly. No one in the scientific community makes that claim, and only the ignorant repeat it. What science has shown is that man, like the other apes currently on the planet, share a common ancestor, and that our lines split from each other many millions of years ago.

But of course, if you god tells you something different, so be it. Just don't expect me to waste time arguing with you over what your sky buddy tells you.

And Jasper, if your ancestors hadn't had certain values, you wouldn't be here now. To think otherwise is beyond silly.

Wow, I've just read all twelve pages of his thread... a lot has been said, some of it fair, accurate, and unbiased and some of it less so. To put it mildly.

I believe that evolution as a process is a fact. There is plenty of documented evidence and proof. I'm not going to repost links and words that have already been posted. If I have the patience to read the whole thread, then I expect anyone who is honestly interested to do the same

My brain is far too fried to compose a long, well formulated post.

..and that makes you, what, for trying?


No, and neither do you or anyone else. In theory you do, but so what! Yes, I know it was a very, very long time. Point?


Did an accidental or random chance Bang give us solar and lunar eclipses? Duh! Reason is undeniable.

Well get rid of all medication and we'll see what happens within a few hundred years. The human race has gotten weak since we started caring for the sick.

As for the whole Big Bang thing, I think The Author of the Disk World series put it perfectly. /Sen

Personally, I think our caring for the sick has made us stronger - put it this way, life expectancy is higher now than it has ever been in developed countries.