Here's a quote from Terry Pratchett's Hogfather:

But who is wiser on earth

A man who has insurance
or a man who doesn't

This is only aimed at being called an idiot

My faith has nothing to do with insurance

Quote: Some writers[3] suggest ..God ... rewards skepticism and punishes blind faith, or rewards honest reasoning and punishes feigned faith.

I am skeptic of men and thier science which is always changing
men have flaws/imperfect

Many people have blind faith in men


Just turn the tables

Quote: Assumes Christianity is the only religion that makes such a claim

who cares, as it states other religions beieve in judgement
irrelevant


Quote: Does not constitute a true belief
True
Insurance by faith is obviously not a reason that god would respect you nor mine

Quote:Ignores benefits/losses while alive

Am i really that worse off by believing
What benifit is anything on Earth with no afterlife
YOu will die and not remember having no soul or brain your physical possensions gone

FOr all intensive purposes of this debate either there is a GOd or there isnt




if there is a God:
on earth their are consequences for your actions
obviously
God would then have created earth
it would only make sense that your actions on earth would carry forward to eternity


Who is wiser
A man with insurance
or a man without

Please try to answer this question or stump me with your well thought dillemna




Wikipedia.. is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know you are getting the best possible information.

The Office( Comedy)

Please Refrain from using Wikipedia.

This is Pascal's wager. We've already discussed the problems with its premise, and you are not answering them.

The fact that science is always changing is what makes it so powerful, and so much more likely to be correct. Imagine two people, Rob and Job. Rob is willing to change his opinion based on new discoveries, whereas Rob insists that his original belief has to be correct.

The two are shown ten blue blocks. Both Rob and Job agree: blocks are blue.

Suddenly, a green block is introduced. Rob says: ah, it would appear that not all blocks are blue after all. At least one of them is green. Job, of course, still insists that all blocks are blue and the it's just the light falling on the blue block differently, making it appear green. Rob says it's possible that you are right, let's wait and see.

At this point, red, orange and pink blocks are introduced. Moreover, Rob and Job are now given equipment that allows them to observe the blocks with great precision. It's clear to Rob: blocks come in all shapes and colours. Job, on the other hand, still insists that all blocks are blue, and comes up with a thousand excuses for the other blocks.

Who's method is superior? Who is to be trusted?

That's true, and they are wrong as well.


It is very relevant. Your entire premise was based on the idea that there is one God, and one way to believe in him. But this is merely an assumption: what if Zeus was the one true god all along? This means that you were wrong in believing in the Christian God, and will spend eternity in Hades for your blasphemy.

So, if the insurance company is not willing to pay you the money, why should you buy the insurance?


I'm pretty sure that the question has been answered.


Ok, I'll refrain from using Wikipedia. I just thought that you'd find its summary to be simpler than the formalism of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy.

Ill drop the insurance bit and and put it another way


Two men are on a journey
neither knows what lies ahead of him, it may be cold or hot
one brings both sets of clothes and the other brings one set

who is wiser?



back to your post what "green" or "pink" book has shed any light whatsoever on the existence of God

Not obvious at all. Dont whine about science not having a concensus about the beginning of the earth.. What do you have? God pulled it out of his magic hat, that is. Where did god come from.
That is why i have magic delicious cookies. How can you believe yourself without them? What benefit is there in life without magic cookies?

Wikipedia is a fine source. Only thing i miss is permalinks to current states of the article. (although perhaps i should look for it)

I don't think your analogy holds. You are the one who is firmly convinced that the weather will be hot; you are bringing "one set of clothes" by your blind faith in God. On the other hand, I do not know what may be at the end of the journey, but I will find out when I get there and am prepared to consider all possibilities.

Once again --- this is Pascal's Wager. You can't keep restating the exact same argument without responding to the rebuttals widely accepted by modern philosophers, even religious ones.

It didn't. It was a response to you saying that science cannot be trusted because it always changes. Clearly the system that is willing to change based on new evidence is the more trustworthy one.

I know your side stepping the answer because your scared to admit it


I am thinking ahead
You are not

A man who plans is wise
Therefore I am wise and not an idiot


People who don't talk to "GOd" are idiots.

All of pascal Wager rebuttals are wrong


For the same reasons the "I AM WRONG"

Your rebuttals are assuming just as i do
YOu assume that god will punish mere mortals who are trying to have a relationship with him, whether we have the right name

WOuldn't he realize that we have all been influenced by the actions of our fathers and have little choice in religion we were first taught

If there is a God
Would a Mentally handicapped person be rejected when he doesn't have the ability to believe or disbelieve

Would God punish a man who hasn't heard the bible (Tribesman)

The naked man.

If they are both gay, they both are. If not, then the one who brought the girlfriend or wife..

And neither if they are both straight and alone...

Only if they are on brokeback mountain.

An old ox and a young ox are standing on a mountain, down below in the valley there are several cows grazing. The youg ox says to the old ox, "lets run down and get us a cow", the old ox replies, "no, lets walk down and have us a bunch of cows". Which ox is more wise?

So, believing in Zeus, Thor or even Satan will still get you into heaven as long as you say that they are your "gods"? Why will God punish mere mortals who believe in science?

But if God will not punish us for our disbelief and not reward you for your belief, how exactly are you wiser?

That's an interesting point. Recent studies have shown that certain people (some 20% of the population) do not have the physical capability of the feeling of religiosity. Among them was Richard Dawkins. So... Do those people also get into heaven?

TO japser
Let me see you fiqure this one out

Science says that the universe is less than say 15 billion years
myabe 30 billion whatever it doesn't matter


However old it is what was there before our universe
or before that

im trying to make you understand that time had a begginning

What happenned 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000years ago
get my drift


Time is unique to our universe
Therefore it only makes sense if time doesn't exist somewhere else and that from a eternal universe became our universe bounded by time


If time is infinite
What caused the big bang
Why 15 billion years ago why not 100000000000000 billion years ago


TIme is unigue to our universe

With time you need a beginning



How do you explain the beggining
How do you explain a finite time scale
ie what happened before the big bang or whatever
WAs the singularity just sitting there for 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000years
and what about the second before that and that and that?

if you believe in Satan then you problably believe in the Christian god also or Zues and hades

you are either talking to the creator and will go to heaven

or in the case of Satan/hades,"assume for a sec that he is the only god"
if people assume Satan is "the god" these people must be worshipping a god that they assume will give them an afterlife
which is pleasent ie//worhipping the all powerful god


but as both religions state that hades/satan were made by the allpowerful god ie// not the first allpowerful god

In this case they are purposely speaking to a "demi-god" "arch-angel" that they know is not the all powerful

If people believe in gods then why worship the second in command

quote:But if God will not punish us for our disbelief and not reward you for your belief, how exactly are you wiser?

All these people are talking to a god/worshipping so your point is irrelevant


What "physical capacity" are you talking about

Did they find that 20% of people have no souls?
come on

No. They have discovered that there is a certain areas (patterns would be a more accurate term) of the brain that are stimulated when feelings of deep religiosity are felt. Showing religious images after inducing a mild seizure generates this feeling in 80% of people, even though many of them don't normally have such feelings or believe in God. 20% were found to be completely immune to this.

the universe has been created

either by GOD
or some thing that science cannnot yet explain

SO as a creator/inventor( you and me)

we invent forks to serve a purpose(put food in mouth)
We dont invent/create useless tools

ie// i dont know cuz we dont

assuming there is a god he must have created us for a purpose

Do we have kids and ignore them (i know sometimes when they are brats) but we would far rather have a relationship with our Creation/kid than have a silence

So if there is a god it only makes sense that we should try to have a relationship with him

and if there isnt why dont we just off ourselves and skip all the pain and suffering

either the universe is good/positive experiences and we should stay alive to reep the rewards

it is nuetral and it makes no difference to live

or it is negative/evil and we would then skip all the pain and suffering in the world by offing ourselves

DO you feel that is more good in the universe than evil

If so where does the good come from
What drives you to stay alive when it makes no difference in the grand scheme of things, especially heaven

Good and evil are merely in your head. I am surprised one as wise as you did not know that.

I am wondering what you are trying to say here, wiseman. Are you trying to convert people or are you trying to tell us you believe in god or, are you looking for confirmation that your belief is valid? Let me answer these three for you the best I can. Remember, however, that I am only one person. 1) converting people will not work. 2) If you choose to believe in a god, good for you, that is your right. 3) Those who agree with you agree with you, those who don't, don't. It does not make or break who you are.

Evolution is not your enemy, religion made evolution it's enemy because evolution pushed religion further into the background in schools. That was inevitable, had it not been evolution, it would have been aids, medical science, or just simple growing disbelief in religion and god. Blaming evolution will only cause you to look foolish in your pursuit to defend religion and god. One is fact, the other is fiction. You choose which is which and live that life unless or until you decide differently. Deal?

Perhaps you shoud start a thread about god so you and those who agree with you can share. Just a suggestion!!

The universe is about 1.4e10yr old now, just because we happen to live at this point in time. No particular reason but that in earlier times conditions were not able to produce our kind of life.
We know this because we can use models and what we see. Our models do not give useful results for t=<very small number. It is not necessary to have a beginning, that is just the conclusion that currently seems likely.
I know of no other physical universes. Although in another tread, any mathematical solution might be a universe. A simulation is a universe in my view too. Many of them dont have time, but it hardly is unique. Also the fact that we have time in our universe stems form the "Arrow of time" problem in statistical physics, and that the universe was (approx)rotationally symmetric in coordinates we call spatial.(follows from general relativity)