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Old 06-02-2007   #1 (permalink)
rickycodie
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Default aristotle's rational man

what makes a man different from an animal?
aristotle argues it's his ablity to be rational.

i think that it's his specific want. an animal wants generalities, food, water, shelter. a person wants those same things, but more specifically, cookes, coke, and a condo.

this is the main component in rational. if you want something, like an xbox, you rationalize a way to get it. the want is driving your rationale.

what do you think?
there is nothing so useless as being effcient at that which should not be done at all.
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Old 06-02-2007   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

Look a human... wants to feel aaallll special
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Old 06-02-2007   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

That's a good point...

Really there is a lot more that distinguishes humans from other animals than just being rational. Not all humans are even rational (for example babies) so this distinction breaks down in many places.

There's a bunch of things that makes us unique:

humans are extremely delicate compared to other animals (thin skin and little protective hair)
humans have long parental investments in our children (about 18-25 years?). humans have the largest brain/body weight ratio
humans are able to travel (walk) longer distances than most other animals.

Of course most all animals are unique in some way, so uniqueness isn't all that unique overall.
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Old 06-02-2007   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

Quote:
Originally Posted by yaaarrrgg View Post
There's a bunch of things that makes us unique:

humans are extremely delicate compared to other animals (thin skin and little protective hair)
humans have long parental investments in our children (about 18-25 years?). humans have the largest brain/body weight ratio
humans are able to travel (walk) longer distances than most other animals.
some pigs have more delicate skin with less hair and also get actinocutitis.

mice have a much higher brain/body weight ratio.
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Old 06-02-2007   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRiGnS View Post
some pigs have more delicate skin with less hair and also get actinocutitis.

mice have a much higher brain/body weight ratio.
Ah...you're right ... now that I recall ... these are only relative to other primates.
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Old 06-02-2007   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickycodie View Post
what makes a man different from an animal?
aristotle argues it's his ablity to be rational.

i think that it's his specific want. an animal wants generalities, food, water, shelter. a person wants those same things, but more specifically, cookes, coke, and a condo.

this is the main component in rational. if you want something, like an xbox, you rationalize a way to get it. the want is driving your rationale.

what do you think?
Rather than ability to be rational, I believe it is our ability to consciously love.
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Old 06-02-2007   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

1. Language

2. Conscious choices

3. Ability to impact the world

4. Abstract thought

Just to name a few.
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Old 06-03-2007   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

Other animals change themselves over periods of time. Humanity is the only animal that's really changed its surroundings.
“There can be but little liberty on earth while men worship a tyrant in heaven.”- Robert Green Ingersoll
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Old 06-03-2007   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

the ability to express them selves and wondering if they are superior
cognitive thought
inability to spell (jk)
written language
Well, it seems that foreboding has fallen over the calm world that I call home. ZS forums and I are now best buds. (I think that zombies have less cred than nukes as a doomsday, but slightly more than aliens...)
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Old 06-03-2007   #10 (permalink)
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What make as different from animals is not ratio,it is our ability to cook and tailoring.
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Old 06-03-2007   #11 (permalink)
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Old 06-03-2007   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjwood View Post
Rather than ability to be rational, I believe it is our ability to consciously love.
i would like to hear you expand on that thought a little more?

i am assuming that you mean the ability to love on command, and if you do what about love being blind?

also what of disadvantageous love, such as a woman for her angry, drunk and violent husband?

if love is willful, then couldn't she will herself to not love? that is not true since most women in that situation will stay until forced to leave. which is not advantageous, and people will twards the advantageous.

so love is not concious(did i spel theat rite?)
there is nothing so useless as being effcient at that which should not be done at all.
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Old 06-03-2007   #13 (permalink)
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Last edited by Mr. Jaggers : 06-09-2007 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 06-03-2007   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

Quote:
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Love is an emotion, not a virtue; and while many would credit it more than its worth, as many have come to grief for it. It is a simple lesson, but one only learned by hard experience.
very good point, do emotions separate us?
i don't think so, all animals experience fear, some mate for life, and thus may have similar experiences.
there is nothing so useless as being effcient at that which should not be done at all.
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Old 06-03-2007   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

Humans have differences in using thought in more complex ways, organising in more complex ways. And because of that we can manipulate the world to make tools, agriculture and such.(this allows us to live nearly everywhere of the land in the world.) Humans also have more complex forms of art.
Mind you, though, i think some animals have versions of the above.

Meh, many of the arguments are based either what we perceive, or on how we delude ourselves. Like humans are the only ones that love? How the hell do you know that?? Rational thought? Thought animals never think? They do try the back door if the front door is closed you know. I am sure some will post delusions on how horrible humans are, and that the animals are sooo innocent.
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Old 06-03-2007   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

Ants (wikipedia)

society:

Not all ants have the same kind of societies. The Australian bulldog ants are among the biggest and most primitive of ants. The individual hunts alone, using its large eyes instead of its chemical senses to find prey. Like all ants they are social, but their social behavior is poorly developed compared to more advanced species. An Australian bulldog ant, Myrmecia pilosula, has only a single pair of chromosomes and males have just one chromosome as they are haploid.

Some species of ants are known for attacking and taking over the colonies of other ant species. Others are less expansionist but nonetheless just as aggressive; they attack colonies to steal eggs or larvae, which they either eat or raise as workers/slaves. Some ants, such as the Amazon ants, are incapable of feeding themselves, and must rely on captured worker ants to care for them. In some cases ant colonies may have other species of ants or termites within the same nest.[27]

The pavement ant is famous for its urge to increase its territory. In early spring, colonies attempt to conquer new areas and often attack the nearest enemy colony. These result in huge sidewalk battles, sometimes leaving thousands of ants dead. Because of their aggressive nature, they often invade and colonize seemingly impenetrable areas.

Ants identify kin and nestmates through their scents, a hydrocarbon-laced secretion that coats their exoskeletons. If an ant is separated from its original colony, it will eventually lose the colony scent. Any ant that enters a colony with a different scent than that of the colony will be attacked.


agriculture:

Leafcutter ants (Atta and Acromyrmex) feed exclusively on a special fungus that lives only within their colonies. They continually collect leaves which they cut into tiny pieces for the fungus to grow on. These ants have several differently sized castes especially for cutting up the pieces they are supplied with into even smaller pieces. Leaf cutter ants are sensitive enough to adapt to the fungi's reaction to different plant material, apparently detecting chemical signals from the fungus. If a particular type of leaf is toxic to the fungus the colony will no longer collect it. The ants grow the fungus because it produces special structures called gongylidia which are fed on by the ants. They create antibiotics on their exterior surfaces with the aid of symbiotic bacteria, and subsist entirely on this farming of the fungus.


relation with other species:

Aphids secrete a sweet liquid called honeydew. The sugars provide a high-energy food source, which many ant species use. Normally this is allowed to fall to the ground, but around ants it is kept for them to collect. The ants in turn keep predators away and will move the aphids around to better feeding locations. Upon migrating to a new area, many colonies will take new aphids with them, to ensure that they have a supply of honeydew in the new area. Ants also tend mealybugs to harvest their honeydew. Mealybugs can become a serious pest of pineapple if ants are present to protect mealybugs from natural enemies.

Myrmecophilous (ant-loving) caterpillars of the family Lycaenidae (e.g., blues, coppers, or hairstreaks) are herded by the ants, led to feeding areas in the daytime, and brought inside the ants' nest at night. The caterpillars have a gland which secretes honeydew when the ants massage them. Some caterpillars are known to produce vibrations and sounds that are sensed by the ants.[35] Some caterpillars have evolved from being ant-loving to ant-eating and these myrmecophagous caterpillars secrete a pheromone which makes the ants think that the caterpillar's larva is one of their own. The larva will then be taken into the ants' nest where it can feed on the ant larvae.

Fungus-growing ants that make up the tribe attini, including leafcutter ants, actively cultivate certain species of fungus in the Leucoagaricus or Leucocoprinus genera of the Agaricaceae family. In this ant-fungus mutualism, both species depend on each other for survival. Allomerus decemarticulatus has evolved a tripartite association with their host plant Hirtella physophora (Chrysobalanaceae), and a sticky fungus which is used to trap their insect prey.
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Old 06-03-2007   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

bonobo plays pac-man, and other amusing stuff:
TED | Talks | Susan Savage-Rumbaugh: Apes that write, start fires and play Pac-Man (video)
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Old 06-03-2007   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

so is there anything that separates us?

maybe it's just our ego?
there is nothing so useless as being effcient at that which should not be done at all.
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Old 06-03-2007   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

We're just a little smarter and a little crueler. Most animals take what they need from their surroundings and if their surroundings are unable to support them, they adapt. We take as much as we possible can, because we can. If we use up the resources in a particular place, we expand and start draining other places. We have the ability to suppress other species and we do that in our quest for expansion.

We're just a little smarter and a little crueler.

@Jasper: You have a bit of a point, but we do know some of those things. We know that animals can think, but we have a higher aptitude for thought. This has been measured with things like cat scans, EEG's (electro-encephelograms), etc. Brains with a large and rapid amount of thought display more electrical activity. For example, dolphins have more cognitive aptitude than most animals...we know this from our scientific tests, and we confirmed it with field tests...the dolphins had a tremendous capability to learn and adapt. So we know that animals can have relatively intelligent thought, but we just have more of it. Doesn't make us any better in my opinion, but it's just a truth of the world that was understood by observation.
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Old 06-03-2007   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: aristotle's rational man

maybe our cruelty is just inconsideration, a lack of thought concerning other species.
there is nothing so useless as being effcient at that which should not be done at all.
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