I don't think they're reconcilable. If someone believe in both, it seems to me that they don't want to give up on religion but can't help that science contradicts them.

Shifting the burden of proof doesn't explain anything. Agnostics aren't sure what to decide about the evidence. An atheist says "the evidence is slim to none for God, so it stands to reason that He doesn't exist."

The evidence is slim to none that there is a penguin in my pants that's just dying to meet you. Are you going to spend the rest of your life debating the question, thinking "well, maybe there's a penguin in his pants." I doubt it. You know there's no evidence for it, and it's ridiculous and speculative to begin with. Your an a-penguinist (No pun on tux intended -- may he live forever).

Believing something is saying "there's never proof for anything in science -- give or take some math -- but given the evidence and question of probabliity, I feel it safe to assume that _____."

An atheist counts the evidence to not point to God hardly at all. That's what he believes. The Christian thinks the evidence points to God, somehow. That's what he believes. The agnostic is simply undecided. It's all a matter of faith: whether or not you trust the concept to be true, even though there is nothing in the world that's 100% certain.

Have a look at the thread The Spectrum of Probability for the Existence of God.

SigmaX

I admire your lack of pushiness on the topic (for a theist, that's rare). But I will put it like this...

I'm going to assume that black holes are super-dense masses of gravity for one reason or another. Do I have any CONCLUSIVE evidence? Not exactly... But there are plenty of good hints to it. So, I assume that's the nature of things, but I wouldn't be too obtuse if someone offered another more probable theory.

I don't think I'm agnostic... My theory is just to reject any theories that I have no proof of. Just because I'm not saying "look, there is absolutely no higher being" doesn't make me agnostic. I think it would be arrogant of anyone to make that kind of assumption.

That's what science is all about... Being cocky about your beliefs gets you in trouble, keep an open mind, but don't fall for any theory out of blindness (or "faith" as you theist's call it).

One thing I'm pretty certain of, on the other hand, is that Christianity is an invalid theory (hopefully you have a more open minded theory on god then that). There's just too much evidence in the falseness of Christianity.

When I say "god", I suppose I'm referring to any higher being, generally one who created, governs, or is "made-up of" life as we know it. But it isn't some "magical" or "spiritual" being. I'm just willing to accept that if intelligence can exist on our level...

Understanding the infinite nature of the "macro-and-micro" cosms, it's fully possible for us to be part of some larger form of conscience.

But, like I said, if god exists... I certainly wouldn't make the assumption that it exists in any form remotely similar to humans (such as the Hebrew god).

Why would a supreme being want us to worship it? The need for appreciation and thanks is a human-like trait.

Why would a supreme being expect us to have faith, yet design us in a manor that inspires questioning and not offer any evidence (unless it wanted us to go to hell). If "god" exists, what's with all the secrecy?

Why would a supreme being be jealous of us experimenting with other religions, jealousy and possessiveness are both pretty animal instincts.

So it looks to me, like a lot of religions based their god around a human-like being. I refuse to believe that... If "god" had no evolution and no need for all those traits, why would it have them?

It's pretty arrogant to believe a higher being is that much like us, IMO.

Random hypothesis: Because most unpushy theists soon become agnostic?

I wish that sort of assumption-based-on-evidence were the only type of "faith" that existed. Then maybe we wouldn't have so much mumbo jumbo about faith, why it's good, why it's bad, and why everyone seems to define it slightly differently.

Well said.

SigmaX

Not actually... I was trying to discuss the reason for that word to exist. How the humanity came to create that concept and how it have evolved during history. I just concluded that God, as a concept, indeed exist, not just as a word, but as a complex social phenomenon.

god was probaly somthing created by erly humans to explain the unexplainable

That reminds me of an episode of metapocalypse...

"There's no such thing as religion"
"Just because you don't believe in god, doesn't mean religion doesn't exist"
"Oh yeah? Prove it..."
"Well... I mean... There's a bible right there..."

(I thought that was pretty funny)

Well, my oh my, this is one deep subject. This is how and why I believe God exist,.....Welcome to my Web site scroll down, clk on Keys to Jesus. In this what I read bibically enlightened my questions of Gods total existance. Its best to be alone and have an open mind, unless you are cold as ice, you too will have an experience unlike any other. Will it come to you in that instance? dont know, I am not God, will it come to you in a time of crisis? I dont know I am not God, when will God speak to your heart as he did mine? I dont know, I am not him, what I do know. If anyone here can create a moon, sun, and or stars and the very blanket that covers this earth, raise your hands please, I would like to see it. Until... all vast theories dissolve by meeting your maker, I would check out the God thing before I hunted down the scientific efforts of those who in their very work ( dismiss God ). I mean how could you not know God, he created you, yes you.

Sherri

I couldn't advocate anything more then open-mindedness.

But you should never, ever, ever leave your mind too open.

Otherwise people will toss lies in there.

Be skeptical, but not obtuse.

I don't think expecting proof is being obtuse at all.

Of course in what you say there is truth. You answererd here rather quickly, I doubt it if you read what I submitted to be read and or you took the real time to invest in alone time to see where I was going with this. You will do this though, I am sure. The proof is in the pudding, read what was submitted, on the website above, unless your heart is hard as a rock, then the proof of his very existance is in the reading. Welcome to my Web site go to Keys to Jesus, to each his own, not obutse at all. In all fairness I will say, God be with you.

Sherri

I'll tell you why: Because I don't care. As I have posted in some other threads, I'm a humanist, and I don't care if God exists as a superior being who created and rules the universe, or not. It's just the same for me. But God, as a concept, has been a determinative point in the history of our society, and that's what, as a humanist, I'm trying to discuss here. This is because even when I don't care about his existence, I can't blind myself to the fact that it is real for many people around me.

I grew up in a pentecostal household... I've read the bible several times over, listened to all the songs, and had to endure years of preaching.

Maybe I'm just hard as a rock, but I still see no reason to believe in something without probable evidence.

Hey, I doubt it if your heart is hard, I just think you were forced to do something that you were not ready for. Spirituality comes to those who seek it, not imposed upon them. Sometimes our parents force a way of existance on us when we are not ready, in time you will find your place again before the Lord, for now do a gentle seek and follow your heart, again I do not think it is hard, you seem well in your soul, just misled a bit, as I too ventured that road in my own life. Again, the evidence is actually in your heart, when you are ready to explore it, not alone....on your knees with him. Ya I too had to find that out the hard way....

Sherri

Something similar happened to me. I grew up inside a very strict catholic family, went to catholic schools, read the bible over and over again, but as I always praised myself as a good reader, I just couldn't stand with a lot of inconsistencies there. Then, doubt came to me, and finally realized the way to go.

I won't dare to say we're rock-hearted just because of that. If you get to know me, you would notice I'm more benevolent than most religious people. The fact I don't do what I do in the name of God but for the sake of humanity don't make me worst or better than any other guy.

Now, correct me if I clicked on the wrong link ("Keys to Heaven Jesus Knows!"), and maybe I'm just being obtuse, but I don't see how it has much to do with God's existence or not. I suppose you could say that the transformation made in one's life (Supposedly supernaturally by Christ/Holy Spirit) is a reason to believe... if you already believe... er... hmm...

As far as the origin of the idea of God, I think it makes perfect sense to me that it evolved. I mean natural selection doesn't care if you're right, it just cares that your mind is dynamic and advanced enough to improve your survival. And, since our belief about the cosmos isn't very relevant to our foraging and engineering tactic, it stands to reason that our reasoning would be underdeveloped/underemphasized/underpreferred on these matters. Our holy lord Nat. Sel. would be content to leave us wide open to the various religious memes that we use to explain consciousness and our feeling of meaning.

Then again there's always the take that Satan created all religions except Judaism/Christianity -- which he infiltrated too -- just to add confusion to the world. (<-- which ranks right up there with "God won't give you evidence for his existence until you believe in Him")

SigmaX

Hear hear!

SigmaX

Think about our ancient ancestors living in caves, threatened by other humans and animals, frequently going hungry or thirsty, sick, losing limbs, losing loved ones and with a life expectancy well below that of today.
What would you have said to these people; something like "Too bad, life is just crap and then you die and that's the end"?
Isn't it far better for these people, who have absolutely no chance of changing their environment during their lifetime, to believe that a benevolent, caring ,supernatural and all-powerful being exists who really wants them to be happy and is going to bring them to paradise after kicking the bucket?
Man by his nature will, in a situation of despair, cling to any little shred of hope that brings a little relief. When you're desperate, you really don't have time to indulge in philosophical bantering or debates about the validity of your beliefs. You grasp what's available even if in less stressed situations what afforded you the relief might turn out to be pure nonsense.
Because we are really out of our depth in trying to understand what's going on in our universe, and because the inevitability of death conflicts so cruelly with our instinctive desire to live, the concept of a benevolent God provides an immense alleviation of what could otherwise be an absolutely intolerable life.
I believe that something close to 80% of the worlds population today live in conditions not very different from those in the stone age. Therefore, God for them is absolutely essential to provide some meaning to their lives.
So even though those, including myself, posting to these forums can afford the luxury of doubting a belief in God (which I very much do), for many others this is not an option.
So, does God exist? Well, even if not, he/she can sure do a good job of making potentially miserable people happy.

That's really one of the things that turns me off about organized religion.

I understand where you're coming from, and let me tell you that you aren't the first to give me this speech.

But (and again, I mean this in a non-offensive way) those kinds of subtle "you're wrong and I'm right" ways of handling people with different beliefs is what makes me reject anything a christian says to me.

Honestly, I'm glad you have religion, and I'm glad it makes you happy

But what makes me sad is that you speak to me as if I need it to be happy, or as if you know my fate.

I'm a very happy individual, I enjoy life.

But I believe if the god you speak of exists, perhaps he/she/it would be so wise and understanding as to see that I'm a good person.

Instead of condemning me to an eternity of torture and hell simply because I choose to indulge in an instinct that was embedded in my personality to seek rational truth, evidence and proof instead of blindly following.

Misled? Maybe by your standards. But you said it yourself, you aren't god.

Misled... well, that's your opinion, and it's respectable, but I would never say somebody in the wrong direction. Everybody is in the same road, some of them to the left, some others to the right, some in the middle. In the end, we're all looking the same things, but each one on his own way.

So you agree with Marx, in that religion is the "opiate of the masses". Still not sufficient.

Hi hon, sounds to me like you are more aware of your life within the spiritual realm than you are willing to admit. No I am not right, and you are wrong by any matter in regards to what you feel or believe, sorry you thought that way, I am not under a spool of deceptive slurs to get you to see what you already know. Rebellion is amazing, been there done that. Maybe you are there, maybe you are here, see bottom line, you must find what it is your looking for in this life, if it involves the redemptive nature of Christ, well than pat yourself on the back your in, ya thats right hon, the end outcome is Heaven,, yes the Keys to Jesus, Jesus knows. Furthermore, I really feel you do to. Remember what you learned hon?? free will?? the most dangerous think Christ gave us? so we choose our masters in this world. All other questions we do not understand or see will be at Christ disposal, not ours, but dont make the mistake of thinking God is not in charge.

Sherri