I'm curious about this statement, as you speak very hopefully of 40, 50, 100 years away... This gives me an idea for a new tread...

How about being concerned about trying to better the lives of the people those townships then, instead of being concerned about making inmates lives as miserable as possible?

I simply disagree here. What you are saing is simply wrong. But HIV is not the point. I think you would do yourself a favor by not looking at the world in a "them and us" view, but to instead use a intergrated perspective. We are all part of this world!


I mostly agree with this, except your take on HIV. But gang related violence does not come out of nothing.



I am glad I am not living in your world. Fortunately my take on the world is a whole lot brighter. I believe in free will, not deternism.

That would work for some but their are still other ways to molest children. In all honesty who is going to actually volunteer for castration.

While we like to think of ourselves as a loving, caring race with a deep concern for our fellows, the reality is harshly different.
We do things that are of benefit to society in general, even though they may cause some inconvenience to ourselves, primarily to avoid the much greater inconvenenience of a fine, a jail sentence or perhaps worse.
Certainly, nobody in their right mind is going to volunteer for castration if the consequence of not doing so is nothing.
Therefore, in this case, the incentive may be to avoid a mandatory death sentence.

Forgive me, but this is very naive.
Realistically, how long do you think it would take to make a significant difference in the living condifions of these people? A year? Ten years? One hundred years?
The fact is it is not going to happen in the lifetime of anybody reading these forums.
While I have no experience in South Africa, I live in a country where 70% of the people live in misery and destitution (by first world standards). Many go hungry, have little in the way of health care and live in houses that are frankly medieval.
For many, crime (robbery or drug dealing) is the only means they have of bringing some hope into their lives.
The current president of Brazil (Luís Inácio Lula da Silva) himself came from a poor background and has put a lot of effort into aleviating poverty here. In his five years in office, has he eliminiated it? No. Has he eliminated the crime that results from this poverty? No.
So, despite your good intentions, you're really going to have to wait an awful long time for this suggestion to turn into a solution.
So, what do you do about crime while you're waiting?

I would say it is a continuing process. I would not be in the society I live in today if not my fathers and my forefathers had not done what they have done. My point with the comment is that you do not alliviate the problems around you, by punishing people unnessecerally who is already being punished. I do not make my country better by punishing those people who are already in jail. On the contrary, I would make it worse as the hatred and division amongst us would rise, making my own life a hellhole in the process.

Of course we could just give up and lay flad down on our backs, but that would help nobody.


And might I add, that the whole point of putting people to jail is to make them better human beings who can navigate peacefully and under the rules of the society we created, and NOT to make them worse of and worse as human beings as they were when they came in.

Call me naive, but that is what I believe.

Why just Christian values. How many were killed by Islamics or Buddists?
We are not the only group that kills. All others do. And by letting criminals out rather that kill them are we not helping them kill their next victim? Do the crime, do the time. Kill someone and get killed yourself. That's fair. Whats not fair is my state letting them live for so long after being convicted. 15-20 years should be shortened to 5 years max.

99.9% of Buddhists are not violent. China invaded Tibet and took over everything. If Buddhist's were violent they would fought for what was there but they didn't. So don't say the Buddhists are violent when you don't have the correct facts.

I am - It's impossible to make every ones life better but in the church and charity that i partake in I give more than my "required" 10%. also I help educating the guard in our complex in computers - it going very slow! .


What I am saying is the opinion of some of the economists in my country. I'm not going to bother finding exact stats, but my father used to work with NMG,NMG, they are an actuarial company that do stats for Insurance companies and ect. According to them HIV is going to screw things up pretty damn well for Africa. Now he is with a clinical research company - they to see HIV as a major head ache. I bring HIV in to show the problem and complexity with eradicating social/economical inequalities.

I look at the world as a them ans us as far as morals and culture go. By them I mean: poor South-Africans that have no education or very little education that cling to old/ancient practices in a modern age. Practices such as having more than one wife and having sex when and where with whom ever you wish. where some of the people believe HIV doesn't cause AIDS or doesn't even exsist. where which doctors actively spread the word that sex with a baby will cure you of HIV. they don't molest kids - they pierce baby girls and have full intercourse. these kids end up in hospital with there guts hanging out of their bodies and their viginal area ruined. That's the THEM culture i talk about.

CNN.com - Infant rape crisis jolts South Africa - December 12, 2001

"South African police statistics show that last year alone, 21,538 rapes and attempted rapes of children under the age of 18 were reported."
from WorldNetDaily: Child-rape epidemic in South Africa

I and plenty others are trying to help THEM but there definitly is a THEM and ME. The biggest problem we face is ignorance and stubbornness.


True - gang related violence has many sources agrees and giveing them jobs I agree would solve it. again, where to get the jobs?


I find this interesting - if you don't mind, expand on this. Just as a note, my world is pretty bright compared to the Townships and ect. I have ADSL where they barley have running water. The fact that I'm for the death penalty will bennifit them much more than me.

@gashcr
PM the link if you don't mind!

@seisen and purelabor

I agree with this part posted by purelabour though I have put the intrecises of my agreement out in full earlier in the thread.

though the Islam and Buddist part bugs me. The chinese partook in WW2 and they are buddist to a degree? I read this, Religion in China - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and found it confusing.

@seisen - do you mean to say that the buddist practice is not violent? I agree, the Dalia Lama comes from Tibet doesn't he?

I take it that Tibet doesn't have the death penalty?

Yes buddhist are non-violent, they even refrain from killing any living creature unless it is necessary. For example if they live in a place were their are no plants, fruits or vegatables to eat then it would be okay to eat meat but you have to be mindful about it. That's why you will find that most Buddhists are vegans or vegatarians. The Chinese army may have took part in WW2 but not the Buddhists themselves.

Yes the Dalia Lama lives in Tibet but as of right now China has total control over Tibet. I really don't know if Tibet has a death penalty, I know before China took over they didn't but who knows what happened after that.

They believe in abiding by the law of the land for one thing. Also, there is nothing in the Old or New Testaments that prohibit it. Then again, there's really nothing that says they have to be in favor of it either.

The "turn the other cheek" thing applies to personal affairs between individuals, its not meant to govern politics or international issues.

-Eric

Yes - you have to see things in perspective!

Thanks! That was interesting!

While I very much admire your views, I just cannot agree with them.
It is most unfortunate that civilisation just does not come naturally to us humans. In reality, we would prefer to have our neighbours house, his BMW and his wife (or wives as the case may be) for ourselves.
So we need an incentive to dissuade us from getting too carried away with these desires. This is where law enforcement comes in.
Like it or not, it has been known for millenia that without some kind of cruel disincentivising prospect (jail, death or having parts of your body removed) the degree of civilization to which we have become accustomed just doesn't happen
That's how it seems from watching too many Disney movies. Actually the whole point of putting people in jail is to show them and others that the threat of punishment is very real, thereby strengthening the disincentive. Additionally, it provides the victims and the victims' families a degree of revenge which is a very necessary part of the healing process for us humans.

Already did

Actually in Judism, "an eye for an eye" meant just compensation, not literally an eye for an eye. That is Hammurabi's code.

Also keep in mind that Israel does not have a death penalty, for religious reasons.

Christianity has no problem killing people:

the crusades

the spanish inquisition

the witch trials