[ButteBlues]

Originally Posted by Mr Nick I need to ask you to please speak for your self. Something that you can not perceive... simply is not a problem I for one wish to aspire to take on. God has a very huge impact on the world, and is perceived by those upon who he/she impacts. The fact that God may have no impact on your world, is no concern of mine, and I am quite at peace with that reality.

That's a very interesting approach...

Could you perhaps elaborate further?

[Mr Nick]

Originally Posted by ButteBlues That's a very interesting approach... Could you perhaps elaborate further?

Well I have had to think about responding, for two reasons. One this might be taking the thread off of it's intended course... Something that I do not enjoy participating in. And second it would be very easy to open up a whole can of worms if one were not very careful. Not really something I aspire to do.

So I will respond by saying...That I prefer to focus my energy on self improvement...as opposed to concerning myself with those who seek proof from anyone other than God.

I hope that is enough to satisfy your question?

[hairy_Palms]

So I will respond by saying...That I prefer to focus my energy on self improvement...as opposed to concerning myself with those who seek proof from anyone other than God.

personally id be very happy to accept proof from god, in fact that proof would convince me, i dont beleive such proof will ever appear though.

[synogenes]

One of the main reasons for the heat in criticism of religious ideas is that the religious use those ideas to define themselves. Consequently, any debate or discussion of the rational basis of religion comes across as a personal affront. That's not the fault of the debate but of the psychological predisposition of those religious people with that viewpoint.

Separating ideas from the definition of people is an important, even essential, part of rational debate. That religion is irrational means that any discussion with religious people has to start from the premise that ideas do not deserve respect but people do. If that can be accepted, much of the heat of discussion of religious ideas can be avoided.

In my experience though, many religious people hide behind personalising the discussion. Folk might like to have a peep at an atheist blog I have at Synogenes.com where there are comments on ethical issues, religious irrationalism, etc.

As this is my first post, I hope I haven't broken any rules by posting a link to my blog - some forums are very touchy about such things. If that's the case, I apologise..

[Mr Nick]

Originally Posted by hairy_Palms personally id be very happy to accept proof from god, in fact that proof would convince me, i dont beleive such proof will ever appear though.

Well that proof is the only thing that will convince you, the fact that you don't believe such proof will ever appear, is simply not one of my problems.

[Mr Nick]

Originally Posted by synogenes One of the main reasons for the heat in criticism of religious ideas is that the religious use those ideas to define themselves. Consequently, any debate or discussion of the rational basis of religion comes across as a personal affront.

That works both ways...On one hand some (well meaning) Christians see it as a personal affront when others attempt to criticize their ideas. That can only be resolved when the Christian becomes secure enough in what he/she believes, that they will not be affected by such things.

And that is not a negative it is a natural part of what it means to be a Christian.

And on the other hand most non Christians tend to see the Christian beliefs as a personal affront to their security.

I know from personal experience that the Christian stands a good chance of riseing above and beyond this situation, but I do not know if it would be as easy for the non Christian.

[JoshJ]

Originally Posted by Mr Nick That works both ways...On one hand some (well meaning) Christians see it as a personal affront when others attempt to criticize their ideas. That can only be resolved when the Christian becomes secure enough in what he/she believes, that they will not be affected by such things. And that is not a negative it is a natural part of what it means to be a Christian. And on the other hand most non Christians tend to see the Christian beliefs as a personal affront to their security. I know from personal experience that the Christian stands a good chance of riseing above and beyond this situation, but I do not know if it would be as easy for the non Christian.

It isn't, because the Christians are trying to leverage their majority to take away the rights of everyone else.

[Mr Nick]

Originally Posted by JoshJ It isn't, because the Christians are trying to leverage their majority to take away the rights of everyone else.

If you are looking to find fault...Please feel free to do that? You will find it with in any group. Speaking for myself here...You are free to do anything you want to. You are also free to be responsible for your freedom.

[ButteBlues]

Originally Posted by JoshJ It isn't, because the Christians are trying to leverage their majority to take away the rights of everyone else.

Now you're just bandying about stereotypes. The fact of the matter is, 23% of the world isn't trying to take your rights away. About 0.0001% of that figure is.

[JoshJ]

Originally Posted by ButteBlues Now you're just bandying about stereotypes. The fact of the matter is, 23% of the world isn't trying to take your rights away. About 0.0001% of that figure is.

It's more like close to 30% of the voters in the United States, and you're well aware of that. Plenty of others follow along simply because they have the same religion.

[hairy_Palms]

Originally Posted by hairy_Palms View Post personally id be very happy to accept proof from god, in fact that proof would convince me, i dont beleive such proof will ever appear though. Originally Posted by Mr Nick Well that proof is the only thing that will convince you, the fact that you don't believe such proof will ever appear, is simply not one of my problems.

i may not think such proof will ever appear but if the evidence nonetheless does appear it doesnt matter what i thought prior to that, were i to be proved wrong and shown such evidence i could be convinced of god,allah,vishnu or whichever other deity it proved the existance of.

[ButteBlues]

Originally Posted by JoshJ It's more like close to 30% of the voters in the United States, and you're well aware of that. Plenty of others follow along simply because they have the same religion.

I specifically noted the world... in which 23% of people are estimated to be Christian.

But back to the point at hand, it's not the majority of people voting along lines because of religion - it's a few idiots. Please stop generalizing.

[JoshJ]

Originally Posted by ButteBlues I specifically noted the world... in which 23% of people are estimated to be Christian. But back to the point at hand, it's not the majority of people voting along lines because of religion - it's a few idiots. Please stop generalizing.

If it were just "a few idiots" it wouldn't be a serious threat to our freedom right now like it is. It's something close to 30% of the population with more following them in elections because of the shared religion.

What I said was, "It isn't, because the Christians are trying to leverage their majority to take away the rights of everyone else." To rephrase, some of them are trying to take advantage of being the majority religion to take away the rights of others. They're trying to leverage their shared religion to get the others to follow their agenda.

[Mr Nick]

Originally Posted by hairy_Palms i may not think such proof will ever appear but if the evidence nonetheless does appear it doesnt matter what i thought prior to that, were i to be proved wrong and shown such evidence i could be convinced of god,allah,vishnu or whichever other deity it proved the existance of.

Given the situation that no one in their right mind would dispute that, I don't get the picture that you are at all interested in obtaining "such proof".

I joined this forum in an attempt to broaden my knowledge from the thoughts of others. As such...(I am a seeker...that is not interested in fighting or arguing.) Information that would contribute to this will be appreciated, and I may not respond to any more information that does not...I am sorry if this does not make you happy... It is just that I have better things to do.

Please have a nice day?

[hairy_Palms]

(I am a seeker...that is not interested in fighting or arguing.)

whilst some people on both sides have been letting passion override at certain times, i would not call anything that has happened out and out fighting, its just debate where both sides think they have a vested interest in what the result is.

Given the situation that no one in their right mind would dispute that, I don't get the picture that you are at all interested in obtaining "such proof".

on the contrary,i consider myself a seeker of answers too, i would be immensely interested in such proof, im not sure why you think i wouldnt,
There is a very large difference between not wanting to find proof and evidence, and doubting that the proof exists. i merely find it confusing that ,in the absence of proof, otherwise rational people still choose to give certain entirely unproven ideas a heightened superiority over other equally unproven ideas.

[Mr Nick]

Originally Posted by hairy_Palms whilst some people on both sides have been letting passion override at certain times, i would not call anything that has happened out and out fighting, its just debate where both sides think they have a vested interest in what the result is. on the contrary,i consider myself a seeker of answers too, i would be immensely interested in such proof, im not sure why you think i wouldnt,

First I need to ask you to please speak for yourself I am not interested in what the result is, And I have no passion invested. You are free to think and do as you wish.

I am not attempting to prove anything, therefore I have no need to debate, or defend.

And the second response is quite plain: If you would be so immensely interested? Then exactly what is stopping you? Keep in mind that I have no interest in helping you with what ever that is...as that is not my problem.

[rinzwind]

Originally Posted by JoshJ Stupid ideas should be bashed. Just because some statement has the word "God" in front of it should not make it immune to criticism. To steal an idea from Douglas Adams, if you're going to tell me that you can't flip a light switch on Sunday, I'm going to say "that's stupid." Why is it, then, that if the statement is changed to "God says I can't flip a light switch on Sunday" that it is suddenly protected and barred from criticism? That's ridiculous. Religion should not be shielded from criticism. If even mathematically proven theories are open for criticism, then something that has never even been proven should be equally open for criticism.

That rule should be: no bashing allowed.
In a place where you are suppose to have social -discussions- bashing should never have it's place.

[hairy_Palms]

First I need to ask you to please speak for yourself I am not interested in what the result is, And I have no passion invested. You are free to think and do as you wish.

well my apologies then, its hard to get an idea of tone from posted text.

I am not attempting to prove anything, therefore I have no need to debate, or defend.

i was under the impression that this forum was for the express purpose of debateing and discussing religion and philosophy, if not then what would you say it was for?

And the second response is quite plain: If you would be so immensely interested? Then exactly what is stopping you? Keep in mind that I have no interest in helping you with what ever that is...as that is not my problem.

the only thing stopping me is the fact that ive yet to find a piece of evidence for a god wherever i look, if id missed any that they know about i wouldve thought someone would be happy to point that out regardless of whether it s their problem or not.

[Mr Nick]

Whatever...I have had no problem what so ever Determining your tone/agenda. So....Stick a fork in me I am done already.

Have a nice day.