Interestingly, Josh McDowell and a few other apologetics were seeking to quantifiable discredit the Bible and God. Now, before you are too hard on the boy for his long book with small fonts, remember that there are two artist that you spoke of in your last post who have evidences that are just as weak and even less well thought out. When you are "preaching to the choir" it is easy to get an amen. There is a difference between a documentary or critical essay and advocacy propaganda. Most people, you and I included, approach life with a set of pre suppositions and all evidence is filtered through the tinted glasses we all wear. True objectivity never come naturally, especially with my generaltion and your generation. We stopped listening and started talking too much around the fourth grade. The Greatest Generation had a far better grasp of history and literature and world events than the boomers, or my generation, or yours. Here is the irony....information is easier for us to obtain now more than it was for them.

You are determined to fit me into a mold, my friend. My mission is to spread love. In my original post on this thread I summed it up. To love God with all I am, to love others as I love myself. No duplicity, no hidden agendas, no schemes. Like Popeye, I am what I am and that is all that I am.




A large part of that is based in experiences. It is amazing how events in life change your views on matters and remove intellectual certainty. A teip to the desert in uniform in the 90's, a daughter in the hospital with the words heart defect ringing in your head, stepping outside yourself as you hear the words cancer and doctors start tellin gyour odds as iff you are a bet in vegas. Being in a convention 2,000 miles away from home and doing the right thing and not betraying an oath mad eon an alter to a woman who is more beautiful now than she was then. The good, the bad, the indifferent. Experience tests our foundations, fires and storms rip at the structure of our lives. Parts of you weather the storm, other parts are blown to bits. As you age, you hopefully mature and gain the elusive lover known as wisdom.




Now THAT is the hit and run approach. I have never understood the point of an evengelist in America...and speaking at a church no less. Add that to the list of concepts that make my brain hurt. Kind of like there being a no smoking sign at the Phillip Morris company picnic. Some things just make no sense. Your church did the right thing. Growth in a church is not really essential. If the minister is serving hsi congregation and making a difference in the community, then it is doing it's job. Numbers matter not.





Warm and fuzzy is good. Somewhere along the way in life I lost the warm and fuzzy. I got it in the eyes of my youngest daughter. All the degrees, all the accomplishments, all the positions and titles meant nothing. Daddy did.

Good point, and I agree that any extremist opinion can make a person act in a similar way to those who don't agree. Truth in human terms (as opposed to mathematical) is almost always found in the shades of grey, rather than black or white.

I'm also confused by those who choose to call themselves a "Bright" (The Brights' Net - Home Page). I don't see what purpose it serves, apart from setting atheism up more as a "religion", and encouraging people to be (to borrow your term) dicks about it.

Well, my oh my, this is one deep subject. This is how and why I believe God exist,.....Welcome to my Web site scroll down, clk on Keys to Jesus. In this what I read bibically enlightened my questions of Gods total existance. Its best to be alone and have an open mind, unless you are cold as ice, you too will have an experience unlike any other. Will it come to you in that instance? dont know, I am not God, will it come to you in a time of crisis? I dont know I am not God, when will God speak to your heart as he did mine? I dont know, I am not him, what I do know. If anyone here can create a moon, sun, and or stars and the very blanket that covers this earth, raise your hands please, I would like to see it. Until... all vast theories dissolve by meeting your maker, I would check out the God thing before I hunted down the scientific efforts of those who in their very work ( dismiss God ). I mean how could you not know God, he created you, yes you.

Sherri

South park had an episode once in which Cartman goes to the future. In the Souh Park future, relision has been disproved and there is only athiests. You listen to some people and the removal of religion from the world would end all war and all of societies ills. However, there are two opposing views on what makes a good athiest..so there is war. The point is, people will always find a reason to fight as long as we are uncool with disagreements and feel we have to, in some way..force our beliefs on others.

Of course, it's human nature. Like those that love marmite...

It doesn't mean that people can't have strong opinions and not feel a need to express them: that's what humility is.

As I see it, there are two main reasons to aggressively assert an extreme view: 1. to rule out any element of doubt that the asserter has on their belief 2. to attempt to eradicate all opposition to their belief in what they feel is a "just" cause".

Yet most of us are pretty humble about our individual opinions. Put into a group then those views can become more assertive and extreme. It's the "mob" mentality, and intrinsically has nothing to do with religion or atheism.

Good points.

I don't agree, I think that humanity is still quite stupid, we have not learned much more than some limited technological tricks in thousands of years, we still don't have a unified understanding of who we are or why we are here. We still don't have a symbiotic relationship with nature the planet or the universe, let alone with each other. We have cultural & religious warfare still going on after all these 1000's of years & we are basicaly mostly still greedy, ignorant & self centered.

So, my observation is that we are quite slow developers when looked at in human time. Perhaps the global warming situation may cause humanity to take some big steps in it's evolution i.e. United action globaly for humanities mutual benefit, one of the major stumbling blocks as far as a united humanity is concerned will of course be apocolyptic religions, those people that think they are doing their God's work by accelerating the destuction of the earth so that they can go through the pearly gates, or have a squillion virgins in paradise! :-)

If humanity survives for another 100 years I would think that we have a good chance of getting smart & growing into our potential, if so religions will be redundant.

As always, time will tell...

Next time you double post [Don't, seriously, leastwise not without reason], remember to copy your link as well :

(Yes, I know I double posted yesterday myself... but that was... different... somehow... )

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Can you really count cultural development as evolution, parsay? I mean, it's change, and there is some selection -- but it can also turn on a dime. I wouldn't be surprised if another dark age comes along and totally turns our current perspective upside-down. And if Al Gore is the best we can do against global warming, I wouldn't be surprised if that dark age isn't too far away.

SigmaX

Can warm and fuzzy be translated into a component of love or response to love? It reminds me of the saying, "Did not our hearts burn within us as we walked with Him in the way?"

And also, "Because lawlessness will increase the love of many with wax cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved"

It could also just be the natural response to affirmation of an idea we like.

SigmaX

Would you mind elaborating?

I would like to read on that one too, as I am waiting to hear...I think I know where he is going with that though, may be a flower child thing....

Sherri

Al Gore is just a salesman, who has probably done some valuable educating too.

I prefer to believe in humanities positive potential, little can be gained by focusing on the negative.

As George Eliot said:

Our deeds determine us, as much as we determine our deeds.

Is it ok, if I say, I don't know what's my religion? Well, at least I know I hate the big religioins, like christianity, and stuff like that. I don't have problem with their faith, but with the power and money thing. Maybe I believe there were a big cosmic something who made the big bang, and that's all. And oh, reincarnation seems pretty cool. But I don't know what to really believe.

I don't believe in any fairy tales. If you do - be my guest. I don't care as long as nobody forces me to believe any of this.

I believe in GOD but not in the church. I think far to many groups use religion as a reason to :
a. get money
b. hate others
c. control others

I am an atheist. I don't mind people beeing religious, what i do mind is excusing too much with religion or trying to force your zealous opinions on others. Everything i do is my choice and i take the consequence of burning in hell if christianity or any other heaven/hell based religion is right.

I am a muslim. (not extremist and surely not a terrorist.)

As far as Islam is concerned I believe the debates science v/s religion and proof v/s faith do not really exist. Indeed we do need faith, but the proof is always quick to come. There are many things that modern science has proven only recently but which have already been included in the holy Quran. The holy Quran was entrusted to the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - who was an illiterate at that time, so couldn't have written the book himself - around the year 610 AD. And yeah the holy Quran has NEVER been tarnished by the human hand.

Some things already written in the holy Quran which have been proven:
- The sky is composed of 7 parts.
- Human beings start as embryos.
- The 9/11 attacks were already predicted.
- A nebula which had recently exploded, making a rose like picture in the sky. (description in the Quran, photo taken by NASA)
- The phenomenon of music being available easily everywhere. (Such a prediction would have seemed crazy at the time it was made, yet it is a modern truth)

Similarly there are countless other things in the Quran, some of which we may not have understood yet (we will when they manifest). I am myself not too well versed in Islam, but they have been books, documentaries..etc on scientific evidences and other predictions mentioned in the Quran.

Also Islam is a perfect religion devised by god himself. We humans are too weak to understand and appreciate its real value which is why many fail to follow the real teachings of Islam correctly, and while claiming to be muslims, they give a wrong image of the religion.

Last thing, I am a muslim but I respect the beliefs (or lack thereof) of others and I am certainly not a terrorist/extremist.

[Thanks for reading this long post - I hope I didn't 'waste' your time - and hello, I am new here ]

Nothing arcane about my statement. A simplistic explanation follows.

"Did not our hearts burn within us as we walked with Him in the way?"

This statement was made by two disciples of Mashiach Yeshua shortly after His crucifixion and the proclamation of His death. He appeared to them in an indistinguishable physical identity and was later recognized through gestures of body language and speech particularly associated with Mashiach. But it was the glow of love evoked from their hearts in response to His love that sealed in the men the conviction of His identity.
And so it is that our capacity to give and receive love is a critical function of consciousness and conscience in its ability to discern the truth. As such, that capacity would be a prime target for elimination if one wanted to manipulate someone else through deception.
I guess a more contemporary way of putting it is that we become jaded and our idealism quenched through the stark disillusionments of life. It is not necessarily so but more often the case that time and events harden our hearts as a coping mechanism. Mashiach taught that a true and loving heart is quintessential for the proper expression of genuine good behavior and thinking.

I could go on but that is the short of it. Children are often (not always) the persona of untainted love and they can kindle the vestiges of our faltering capacity to love in return.

Very nice post fluxy And I emphasize on the evidence presented by the Quran.


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