I consider myself a follower of Yeshua ha Mashiach. I came to this path the hard way and I have followed it along for nearly 40 years now.
I have the short version of how I found this Way on the internet. To navigate to it just click here: pilgrimage

If you read you will see that I base my walk on this pathway on a living and true relationship with YHVH through his Son.

For those opposed I can only say that I grew up in inner city Philadelphia, went to Viet Nam in the army in 1966, and barely survived the intense social upheaval of the late 60's. This sent me on a pilgrimage that changed my life forever. I discovered that Truth, Love, Light and Life are one and the same and worth giving everything up for. I have come to know Him and I abide in Him every day. The path of peace is not easy but it is full of real riches; both now and in the future.

For those of you who claim Mashiach Yeshua as your Lord and Savior I would like to thank you and encourage you to press on to know Him and abide in Him each day.

He said, "This is eternal life. That they know you the one true Elohim and Yeshua ha Mashiach whom you have sent". If you don't know Him then you can not truly defend the trust you claim in Him. Your faith then is very weak. There is a big difference between knowing about Him and knowing Him. We must not strive but be patient with all. Being gentle and full of love if perhaps others might come to see a glimmer of Him in us whom we have come to truly know.

I believe that religion's are a product of human evolution. Religions will become extinct in the future as humanity develops & learns how to use more than 10% of it's brain.

I'm happy to agree with you about the Truth, Love, Light and Life are one and the same

You can choose giving everything up for the infinite essence, I like to enjoy this work of art of a universe, in gratitude.

I believe that every choice is ok with the infinite essence, & that judgment does not exist except in man's mind.

Exploring this creation is a wonderful privilege...

I'm a Christian, or as it was originally coined--a follower of the way.

Clever arguments have their limitations I find, and much as I enjoy them, I find what seals it for me some very personal 'proofs' and a relationship with a very personal saviour.

Now when a believer shares what has happened to them in their lives, it is very easy for those listening to disbelieve, especially if they don't know that person from Adam, so this is probably not the forum for me to give such personal stories.

This is not a cop out for reasoned debate though...

true, but to dispel a widespread misunderstanding i should point out we use a lot more than 10% of our brain currently, just not at the same time, just because we only use 10% to eat, doesnt mean we use that same 10% to think. almost all parts of our brain get used.

I have to agree with you on that. I have family members that go to church only on Sundays or as I call them "Sunday Christians." When I used to go to church I remember on days like Easter or Christmas Eve the church would be packed then the next week you wouldn't see half the people that were there the week before.

So many Christians - so many differences yet supposedly following the same path.


A Militant Atheist here.

Don't get your dendrite's in a knot?

True enough, generally. Ironically I often find that there are ignorant people who make great arguers, and well-learned people that tend to just smile and nod.

However this thread in particular has done pretty well, as far as meaning-of-the-universe discussions go. There's been very little flame, and barely the occasional snide, Dawkins-fuelled comment about religious belief in general, and how we should feel free to openly ridicule ridiculous beliefs.

I have no problem with that. However, let me join the ranks of posters who've said "My Psych-101 book told me:" Emotional arguments ("What Jesus means to me...")-- though the most directly impactful -- are the least likely form of persuasion to make a lasting impact on a non-believer. Intellectual reasoning -- hard though it be in a world riddled with bias in all directions -- is much more likely to make a difference -- if it's cogent. Better yet, change the persons behavior (Get them to church and put them on the spot).

I often note how much of Christianity is based on tradition. It's a world-view -- but how much of the image a Christian sees is actually directly from the Bible? Not much, I'd say. There's quite a jump from reading facts in the Bible -- or any book for that matter -- and how a person's life and attitude is actually carried. I've read quite a bit on Hinduism, but I've never learned more then when I actually heard an Indian fellow explain it at the Hindu temple in Chicago.

One's image of a "relationship with God," for example, comes primarily from the way other Christians talk about it, not the Bible itself (Though Paul says plenty that could be claimed as source, I suppose) -- and Christians talk about faith in a wide array of ways.

James Sire -- a Christian -- admits to the subjective nature of Christian belief in The Universe Next Door (p. 132-3):

"Truth in its personal dimension [a relationship with God] is subjectivity; it is truth digested and lived out on the nerve endings of human life... The full truth is in the paradox, not in an assertion of only one side of the issue. Presumably this paradox is resolved in the mind of God, but it is not resolved in the human mind. It is to be lived out: "God, I rely completely on you; do your will. I am stepping out to act."

SigmaX

SigmaX,

I would like to thank you for a very thought provoking reply. The realm of the emotional and the intellectual are interesting ones. Though I used to be a minister and am once again heading in that direction, I have never "evengelized" anyone that I know of. I have inspired some people, I have offered compassion to some people. Mostly, I have been a friend to people. That means hanging with them in their darkest hour when their are no words of comfort to offer, but just silence in the chaos. It also means celebrating the wondrous moments...lifting you up when you are down...knocking you down a peg when you are too high...etc.

I've friends of many different faiths, lifestyles, ages, races, and genders. My friends know who I am and what I believe. Sometimes we differ in opinion. We all enjoy discussing the differences, but we do so respectfully and without generalizations and lumping. Now, in regard to my Christian friends, those who were not raised in it usually have a story of conversion. A moment in their life where they decided this is the path they want to walk and this is diety they have chosen to serve. With the exception of Albert Einstein (who I never met, but I did read his writings on his deistic beliefs and how they stem from his awe of the order of the universe) I've yet to personally encounter someone who embraced faith due to an intellectual awakening. It was almost always a want for fulfillment in their lives. These have been bus drivers, car wash attendants, and professors with PhD (piled higher and deepers ) in engineering.

I enjoy an intellectual debate and conversation, but not for the point of conversion. If a friend is in a dark hour, I will be there with compassion and love...not for conversion...that is love with conditions and dishonest. If someone wants to know about conversion, fine..we can have that chat...but it will not happen in debate nor will it happen in your dark hour.

What will make a difference...what will make a difference is when we all put our preconceived notions of people based on belief..or lack of belief and start working together as a community to better each other...and in turn..ourselves. Fascinating part is that Christians, Jews, Muslims, and atheists can all gather around a cause if we choose to. Look at FOSS. When you are on a mail list...you have NO idea what the faith is of the person who told you how to get hardware specs by entering $sudo lshw...and you do not care. You are appreciative of the aid.

I value that same sort of interaction very much. Even though I lean towards atheism myself, I don't like the cudgel of "you're wrong you religious idiot!" any more then I enjoy the evangelical's hellfire and brimstone speech. Everyone has their opinions, but we needn't be rude about it.

Dawkins' says "a widespread assumption, which nearly everbody in our society accepts -- the non-religious included -- is that religious faith is especially vulnerable to offence and should be protected by an abnormally thick wall of respect, in a different class from the respect that any human being should pay to any other." (God Delusion, 20)

He proports to disillusion the masses and bring religion full into the realm of critical analysis. This is his justification for being startlingly blunt and passionate against religion throughout the rest of the book. I agree that one should be willing to openly question and dialog over religion and it's merit, or lack thereof, but -- maybe I'm just a more mellow personality then Dawkins, or more insecure in my youth-- I don't feel the need to troll about it. I don't like how atheists seem to be using Dawkins' argument to justify disrespect for the religious mind -- a deeply embedded part of human history that people don't shed lightly.

Daniel Dennett effectively challenges religion (Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomena was published just a few months before The God Delusion), and is as widely reknown as Dawkins -- but he isn't nearly so harsh. Dawkins might be more convincing, I cede, but I don't know quite what to do with so much bias when I read him. I have to take twice as long to process Dawkins -- just to make sure I'm not being brainwashed. That's the real kicker.

I've met several who can make a cogent case from historical prophecy (Usually along similar lines to this site)-- which is probably why I insist on showing them respect when others find it easy to dismiss religion in general along with Santa Clause.

Which is grand, but it's exactly that sort of foundation for faith that makes the skeptic laugh. It may feel like a great transition, and it make feel like there is supernatural intervention -- but in the end it's all easily dismissable as emotional fluff accompanying a widespread meme.

This is the sort of evangelism (If that's the word) that my church has always encouraged. Friend-to-friend, by example through Christ. A somewhat amazing force seems to take over, if someone who trusts you takes interest in the religious foundation of your life style. Christians call it the Holy Spirit. I call it the amazing power of peer pressure: the same power that makes kids buy meth or join the chess team, against any real reasoning.

The world is run by cool factor in its various forms. In context of Dawkins, anything but atheism is shameful. The tide could be turned in any direction, however, by a skilled author of any world view.

Here's to idealism and youthful hope! I heartily hear ya, and hope to see more of said attitude permeate the world in the future. Just don't disillusion me just yet... :-).

Siggy

PS: This post is probably better suited for the thread on militant atheism... so I'm double posting. I know. Bad Siggy.

Atheist straight up and down like six o' clock.
I have my reasons.....
...starting with crusaders
...and ending with jihadists

You'd think they would've become so since long ago, if that's true
If religions are here this far, I'm guessing they're here to stay.

Extreme Coder

You do realize that "10%" is just a figure of speech of sorts. Humans' brains are almost always fully engaged (aka 100%). Just a little FYI I found interesting.

As for me I believe there is a higher order. I also believe that most things in the world can be scientifically linked to natural phenomena such as evolution. I know it's a strange combination, but like others have said this is what my instinct tells me is true.

I think that most people in the world just need something to look forward too, such as an after life or being "saved", and use the amazing power of human rationalization to bring actual higher beings into perspective. One of my friends is a strong believer in Christianity; she's also tried to convince me of some of the bible's teachings about the creation which I found pretty far fetched. She seems to get some joy out of this constant hope for a better place and a better life through God. She is one to also look forward to the afterlife (another concept I believe to be the human mind coping with the end of life.)

I, personally, get joy out of everyday life and prefer to keep my head down to earth than in the clouds. (no pun intended)

Just my 2 cents.

Will

Dawkins no more lends himself to rational thought and rational discussion than Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell. It is hard for me to comment on anything said by the three men listed in my last two sentences. Ignorance and intolerance makes itself known when you use the same tools of those whom you claim you are trying to expose as wrong.

You read a book by Josh McDowell or you read the Fountainhead by Ayn Rant...no matter the quality of the writer, they are not merely trying to espouse a world view they hold dear, they are trying to convince you that they are right and any other position is daft. ood to have your guard up as you read. However, as opposed to an apologetic study on atheism...wy not read a good mystery novel? Far less taxing on the brain.




Interesting link.



Look, I obtained my first bachelors degree at 17. I am not here for the skeptic. Christian lives by something called the Great Commission. They are to spread good news..not debate it. Do I have answers at the ready for those who would assault me for my beliefs, yes. But I find it better to allow them to scoff and mock. They need it more than I do to feel superior. That is not something I need anymore. Not due to my faith. I think having daughters kinda gets you into what matters and what does not. If God did indeed create the heavens and the earth, I do not need to defend him. He can take care of himself.



The problem is, in the case of 95% of the evengelicals...a trick is all it is. Smoke and mirrors to lure. See, once the person is converted...they friendship wanes because they move onto the next Eliza Doolittle to make appealing for Professor Higgins. The other thing is when the friend proves to be unrepentant. Well, then we move on. Tell you what...next time you see the Mormons come to your door. Invite the young men in. Do not debate. Listen to them. There are 12 meetings that they have programmed. Do not go to the church, do not pretend to wish to be baptised. Eventually, the young men who come over with cookies and are your bro...will come less and eventually stop. You are unconverted. The project is done and you are still a flower girl from the East End. Not my bag, dadd-e-o. I use shit to fertilize my garden, not feed my friends.



When idealism dies in you...that is when it is time to read a little Kevorkian....or hang with the other lemmings...either way..your already dead.

Siggy

PS: This post is probably better suited for the thread on militant atheism... so I'm double posting. I know. Bad Siggy.[/quote]

Double posting nerfherder!

Sure makes it difficult :-/, it does. I've read some McDowell as well (Specifically New Evidence that Demands a Verdict). He has the occasional good point, but otherwise tries to swamp the reader in smaller arguments. Makes for a thick book with little clear substance. Reminds me of a lot of my freshman theology book...

I suppose, from a Christian perspective, it's the task of the Holy Spirit to let get them to come around. "Planting the seed," is that what you see your mission as? I can empathize with that... though from my perspective it seems more like hit-and-run.

I'm aware that there is usually a big difference in point of view between young folk and those who've been there. Not sure what author it comes from, but in my social circle we call it the disparity between "level 4" (Searching) and "level 5" (Post-search/convicted/disillusioned). My own father and I are very similar in a lot of ways -- but there is still a big gap in philosophy that is hard for me to cross cognitively. One of these days, though, for better or for worse...

Makes one think of capitalism...

I can remember when, not to long ago, my home church was planning on having a big-namer evangelist come through town. He came as a guest speaker one week and talked to the church members in a meeting that afternoon. His whole get-them-baptized-ASAP-to-get-'em-hooked take made several members uncomfortable. They opted to cancel the series. That church grows very slowly, if at all, more by births then converts.

Thanx... that makes me feel... all... warm and fuzzy... inside...

SigmaX

Just subbing to this thread: looks like there is some interesting discussion...

I like to call myself a free-thinker (critical agnostic), but others have call me an atheist. I need evidence for what I believe whereever possible - whether that's the big bang or god. Logic, as I understand it, poses too many problems with mainstream religions for me to accept them (the one-and-only" sentient, omniscient, omnipotent god depicted in most religion), and I don't see religion and worship as an efficient tool for a "supreme being" anyway.

I don't agree with Atheism being labelled as a religion. It's not a system of doctrine, but simply a belief that there is no "god". I can't see a consistent concept of what is "god", so I can't call myself an atheist.

I once read an interview with Douglas Adams in American Atheist Magazine. He was being heralded as a hero among atheists by the interviewer and he was a mite confused. The fact that we have atheistic societies and magazines in America and peruse atheist rights in the States is confusing to a Brit. When you are dogmatic. You may not be a religion, but you are still a pain in the butt to hang out with. Ever meet a vegan? Not a vegetarian, but a vegan. A vegetarian chooses to not eat meet and thinks it would be keen if others did, but is not a dick about it. A vegan runs around pointing fingers at us with every chicken nuggest or steak medallion we nibble calling us evil. This person lacks tolerance for other choices. This behavior can be found in eating choices, faith, athiesm, sexual preference, and many other things.

Is Atheism a religion? No. Can an atheist be a pain in the butt and be intolerant just like anyone else (Christian, Vegan, etc) yeah. Should all atheists be painted with said brush? No.

i have no religion

Agnostic/Athiest/Wiccan/Pagan

Let me clarify....

I'm not so sure I believe in the Catholic religion's view of God, so therefore I would probably be closer to an Athiest according to what my family thinks. I don't know if there IS a higher power than us that sees and knows all. I find more realistic the lifestyle/beliefs of Wiccan/Pagan "religions".

I am 100% against all modern organized religions, they are no better than what most people call cults. I believe in being honest, loyal, and respectful. But I also believe that if you break that honesty, loyalty, or respect on me, then I loose that same honesty, loyalty, and respect for you. I'm finding as I grow older than I am becoming less trusting, and more like I was when I was a teenager with a nice stone wall around my heart. I do respect ALL people, regardless of beliefs, as long as they are honest, loyal, and respectful of me. I am Pro-choice, Pro-Gun, and Pro-capital punishment. That being said, I have no respect for child molesters or men who abuse their wives or kids.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again....I have friends who I know their husbands/boyfriends abuse them. If I ever SEE it, I have NO problem going to jail defending that friend, and that goes for anyone of my friends or family members and their kids. I refuse to get involved in any situation like that, but if it's a case where something is happening in front of me, I have no other option but to defend them. Yes, that's part of my belief system, and religions are basically a set of belief systems.