How do you think about conscription, people being drafted to serve in the military.

Many countries in the western world don't have conscription anymore.

Germany for example still has, and there are discussions about it every couple of months. Some think it's tradition, and that everyone should undergo military training. Others think there should be a choice.

Contra traditionalists: Right now there are about 13 million (age 19-40) with military training. The Bundeswehr only deploys about 8000 at this moment. These are the numbers the News brought up.

Contra well the others: There is some sort of choice as you can take some sort of substitute service. There you have to work as an ambulance's driver, help old or physically/mentally challenged people.


What's the situation in your country, would you like it to change, what do you think about countries with, what about countries without conscription.

The situation in my country is this: For about the last century, I think every time there was a draft, or a draft was proposed, it was by Democrats. Every time a draft was ended, it was ended by Republicans. In the interest of intellectual honesty, I'll say that the actual drafts and the fact Democrats started them was probably more a matter of coincidence than anything, tho recent calls for a draft by liberals in the U.S. were political, based on liberal philosophy that makes government the end rather than the means, and promotes the idea of "a people of, by, and for the government," rather than a "government of, by, and for the people."

I have just short of twenty years in the military, and based on my experience I can say I dread the very thought of a draft in the U.S. Most people in any kind of leadership in the military likely share my view.

Aside from my principles oriented in personal liberty, there are the practical matters. I have enough problems with the turds that are enticed into enlisting for money for college and think the military is one big government program you have to show up for. At one point there was a much healthier work ethic and concept of service, and people, once drafted, would likely give it their all. That's just not a reality today, and I'd hate to see my successors have to deal with snot nosed kids pouting about being forced to do this and that.

Today's high-tech military doesn't need numbers, it needs quality, and the volunteer model is filling that need - even today during an unpopular war.

In summary: The draft is a bad thing and we don't need it anyway.

Conscription in my view is fundamentally opposed to the concept of freedom of choice.

Australia has a fairly limited history of conscription introduced temporarily during wartimes (by conservative governments I believe but I do think that is mostly coincidence).

Also, just a comment on this:
I think this is a reflection on Western society as a whole, not just related to the military. (Most) People today just seem to be growing up with the view that the world owes them a living and everything should be handed to them on a plate, and as a result they need to whine about everything under the sun.

That's exactly how I meant it. People who enter the military come from "society as a whole."

The view that "the world owes them a living and everything should be handed to them" is kept alive and fed very well by liberalism. Liberalism tells us "the world owes you a living," and its liberal politicians who want to "hand you everything on a plate." (After they sieze your money to pay for it of course.)

The government that is given the power to do everything for you has the power to do anything to you.

I'm sure to be chewed up and spit out on this one... I am not aware of all the logistics with the ins and outs military enforcement. Heres how I see the draft...especially here in America, it should still be in force..totally activated, willingly or not. War is inevitable..every country should be prepared, our men use to serve 2 years top, after that it was a choice. I dont know how to say this...but it seem to make men out of boys and a more solid atmoshere with being safe guarded. I never have seen so many gender issues un-veil since I was a young woman...maybe it was all closet hiding...dont know...but if there was any confusion to ones gender they would have definately found out with two years served in the military...I see this as a plus. The draft helped youngs boys develop strong character and strengths with-in they were un-aware of rather it was breaded in them at home or not...Its hard for me to explain..ok, I am adding something silly..

When I was young I use to say...women had babies and the guys had to be drafted, so it evened up the score...YYYYEEEOOOWWW not so now,,,like I said I am just being silly.

Sherri

Aside from questions of the ethicality of drafting people, (what kind of government is so unconcerned with the welfare of its people it will force them to be used as cannon fodder, etc) I can't imagine what good a person who's basically being forced into the job would be.

Interesting post. Being in favor of "our boys" being drafted, I hope you'd also be in favor of "our girls" being drafted as well?

My response is that it isn't the government's job to decide boys need to be made into men. If boys want to continue to be boys, and so many of them do, that is their right. This isn't a problem that the government should be fixing - especially not by drafting them!

No I was not part of the womens movement...so no...for me the answer is no that is...women in general have made their way into the camps and heads of men to do as the men do...so now its expected...less you forget...the most of us are the weaker vessel...although *tisk* *tisk* its not to be said that way...and it offends women...and because of the movement..I guess then yes we should indeed be drafted. Who then holds down the fort if need be? provided a fort was created.









The government protecting there country aforehand preparing our men to become men earlier isnt a bad thing...no its not the governments job to make them men...but...in the long run...it wouldnt hurt either. Especially when so much of the generation now seems without a direction...so two years in the service could provide a more postive outcome to a lifestyle they may ( while serving ) become accustomed too...who knows...they may make a career out of the service and retire at 37...to me that is a dream...much sacrifice involved though..your very life indeed...

Sherri

Iandefor, not sure I understand your post, it seems a bit like an oxymoron...but I may be reading it wrong...

Sherri

What are you currently taking away from it?

You know you say this but I would like to point out that the Republicans used to be the liberal party and Democrats the conservatives. Political parties don't stay the same. What Republicans voted for 50 years ago is not the same thing they'll vote for today. There is in fact a long history one of the two parties (I think democrat) 150+ years ago actually used to be called the republican party and they changed their name.

Do you have any factual data to back this assertion of yours?

I don't know if its your unconventional punctuation or what, but your post is not easy to read and understand.

Who would hold down the fort? The people who don't get drafted. That said, I really wouldn't want to see women or men get drafted. But if were to be a draft, women should be eligible as well.

Lots of things wouldn't hurt, and just because something isn't a bad thing doesn't mean the government should become involved in it. Also, what you consider bad, others consider good. There are varying standards in our society regarding what makes a man, as you put it.

Anyone who wants to explore service in the military can, provided they meet the requirements, and if they don't - there's other ways to seek direction. But, so long as they don't damage me, I don't care if someone has direction or not, and the government sure as hell shouldn't.

Iandefor..

Well, my take from this is it seems the government ( aside choice ) makes you serve regardless,,,is what I am hearing you say...then in the second half it seems like if they dont go...here is the results...>>> untrained, unwilling poeple all over would would suck for volunteers, as this may be the only ones who would step into military shoes...like I said I know I am missing the beat somewhere here in this, sorry...

Sherri

I don't know if its your unconventional punctuation or what, but your post is not easy to read and understand.

Who would hold down the fort? The people who don't get drafted. That said, I really wouldn't want to see women or men get drafted. But if were to be a draft, women should be eligible as well.


Lots of things wouldn't hurt, and just because something isn't a bad thing doesn't mean the government should become involved in it. Also, what you consider bad, others consider good. There are varying standards in our society regarding what makes a man, as you put it.

Anyone who wants to explore service in the military can, provided they meet the requirements, and if they don't - there's other ways to seek direction. But, so long as they don't damage me, I don't care if someone has direction or not, and the government sure as hell shouldn't.


Eric...


Hi Eric


Yes...basically the woman holding down the fort...old hat...I see the draft and the need differently than you...apparent.

considering the womans movement and the power behind it..placement with the man and anything equal to that...then yes I suppose women should be drafted as well.



What other people consider bad and I may consider good..is called life,,
to each his own...I did not imply that this is the way to manhood...the military...I did however insinuate its a good start and or direction in this it would not hurt.

Caring for people is something we should all do..if the government was doing the draft impart to the fact that if need be...men be called for war...then men will be ready for war..not be scared..un-trained, and or dodging the draft..because of no prior skill..

Sherri

In the second half, I meant that having a lot of draftees who don't want to be in the military would probably not make the jobs of people who signed up of their own free will any easier. IE, everybody loses out. The government loses credibility, the draftees' rights are trampled upon, and the volunteers have to work with a bunch of unwilling soldiers.

Does that make more sense?

I don't think you'll find it difficult to find people all over who would NOT consider being drafted into the military "being cared for."

The place where you are "missing the beat" is that our volunteer force is sufficient. We don't need a draft, and we certainly don't need the government "caring for us" by conscripting people into the armed forces. I'll also point out that having a draft isn't the cure for draft dodging.

Look at the Republican party 30 (maybe 40) years ago. Very libertarian and constitutional. The Republican party today (under Bush, and their candidate John McCain) is very authoritarian socially, and in reality not very "liberal"* economically. 30 years ago I would have most likely voted Republican. Just look at Ron Paul; he's a perfect example of what the Republican party used to be like. It's no wonder Ron Paul is supported more by Democrats than he is by Republicans, he's just old and a strangler from that era.

*edit -- by liberal I mean economic freedom, as in libertarian, the term is used more often in US politics to refer to socialism, which is pretty much the opposite concept

Eric
Sorry you misunderstood the insertion on my behalf with (being cared for) that was indirectly aimed where you said:

But, so long as they don't damage me, I don't care if someone has direction or not, and the government sure as hell shouldn't.

It was then I meant that all humanity in general should be cared for, meaning people caring about people..as you said...and I quote ( I dont care if someone has direction or not )..

I tend to go overboard in the people department and try to do a save for all, so understand if you will...I do care about the direction in peoples lives...even if I cant help them..

As long as sufficiency is the case thats one thing...but if I had to rely on the media as to what is going on,,,and how hard its been on the troops and their families..and the exhaustion taking place..then it makes me wonder of the "sufficiency",,long story short...doesnt seem to be enough people in the long haul to make rounds..

Also note: a draft will not stop dodge drafting...but if the young men were at least aware of the possibilities of war and how to handle weapons, and possibly curing a fear factor..well then the draft would be a good thing. This is not for all men...no doubt..and men may dodge the draft even so...but if you ask me..I think it would do so much more good than harm..as all I truly have to go by is my fathers stories of Korea...what he learned, the experiences and all the wonderful friends he made..for him the draft was a plus, he also said it makes a big difference in your manhood..so...what can I say...except when I see young men with giant holes in their noses and ears and have mercy who knows where else from peircing out of sheer boredom and or peer pressure, it makes me wonder what the service can do for them...maybe...give them a DIRECTION.

Sherri

Iandefor..

Yes excellent point..yes it is more clear to me now, ...thank you..I guess its a catch 22 in the long run....

Sherri