[Fanon]

This will be my final post on socialdiscussions.com

I love people.

That is why I am an Ubuntu lover. To me, it represents the opportunity to share the computing experience, the internet and the internet community, not only with those who can afford Windows or a Mac but everyone.

Because I love people I am very engaged in politics, for in the United States, politics is the mechanism through which people power is or is not distributed.

I am African.

Living in the United States I am very aware of the role racism plays in the lives of people of color and in the functioning of the society as a whole. It is my belief that racism is used to divide the regular folks in the country creating a situation where we are

1) The only post-industrial country on the planet in which the people have not come together and demanded universal healthcare. Other countries have had it for at least a half century. At least.

2) The country with the highest percentage of its citizenry forced to sit in cages. We call it prison.

3) Some of the largest cities on Earth with the worst mass transit infrastructure.

4) The largest wealth inequality of all post-industrial countries with average CEO pay at big companies being 400 times the average production worker's compensation.

Because other countries with relatively homogenous ethnic populations have organized working classes that have long overcome all of these problems, I maintain that race is the # 1 social, political and economic issue for citizens of the US. I believe that we, the people of this country can win on all of these issues if we work together and cease to be racially divided. This will take work but we can do it.

Because of the systemic ideological nature of this problem I have never expected widespread agreement with my positions. I have, however, expected, along with others with contrary opinions, the freedom to express.

I have recently been informed by the moderatorship of this forum that my expectation of freedom of expression was unwarranted and wrongheaded. Specifically,

Originally Posted by bapoumba Dear Fanon, Please stop with your racial nonsense, we are getting tired.

While no one necessarily likes being told to shut up. It's one thing when rebukes and 'shut ups' fly from poster to poster. That could be called flaming or rudeness but usually it's just folks getting a little carried away. When moderators privately tell posters to shut up there is another word.

Censorship.

When I arrived at this forum a couple of months ago, several posters expressed curiosity as to why there are so few people of color engaging in the online political debate of this society. I believe that my short experience here may serve, for those interested in receiving it, as a message explaining why. From the openly hostile personal attacks from some on the forum to outright censorship by those tasked with running the forum. Moderator bapoumba made note to ensure that his/her words were not unitlateral, characterizing the nature of the censorship saying, "All staff agree here". I do hope that as I depart, the moderatorship will have the temerity and courage to not censor this final post with deletion or edits. But if so...

I wish all of you good fortunes in your political education and in life generally. Particularly rjwood, kevmartin, latecomer and DChristopher who even in disagreeing with my views were almost always respectful, which is all anyone can reasonably expect and apparently more than most here cared to offer up. To, at this point, continue on here with the clearly communicated threat of censorship hovering over every post, would be dishonest of me. For that reason, I will depart.

Keep up the good discussions. If ever I am sought, you can find me at Playahata as Watch Out Now! or at Internet Infidels as ATLien.

Fair winds and following seas,
Fanon

[matthew]

Actually, censorship would be us editing your posts. That has never happened. You were asked politely to stop posting the same thing over and over and over.

Anyway, my response is unlikely to change your opinion, and since you have already said that you have made your last post, I wish you well as you move on.

Goodbye.

[Big Dave]

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.....

[Jasper84]

Too bad, i found your threads The United States Is A Democracy and Political Whites Need To Self-Reflect quite interesting, although i did not post in the latter. I think you could have expected resistence, as 'white supremacists' are more often associated with neo-nazis which is more extreme then i think you mean. Perhaps it helped create discussion though.

Having said that, i do not think you have really been censored at this point, have any of your posts/thread been edited out? The admin saying what is quoted could have been more diplomatic, he could have asked you to take another approach to show your viewpoint. I think your post have been better thought through then posts of many other people.

Well, good luck then, feel free to keep posting here, though .

@Big Dave: Mister only 15 posts, only just joined, learn some manners, dont be a troll. (yes you are)

[kevmartin]

Diversity of opinion is what makes a forum like this great. I am saddened and disappointed to hear of both your departure and the less-than-diplomatic PM you received from the mod in question. While there was a common thread through most of what I read from you, there is a reason for that - you firmly believe there is a common thread through the issues you posted about. I hope you reconsider the decision to leave, and believe me when I say there are those here who did appreciate your input.

Racism, like beauty, can be seen to be in the eye of the beholder. Just because I don't see it the same way you do, doesn't make me want to not converse with you - what a boring approach to life that would be. Personally I would much prefer to debate things with those who have differing viewpoints to me.

And on the topic of the thread subject, I believe that a PM from a mod (a person in authority) asking a general member to change the way they post, inherently carries with it an element of "... or else". It is, therefore a form of censorship, albeit a more discreet one than direct removal of posts, post editing etc.

[rjwood]

Sorry to see you go, Fanon. I know it's difficult to change your mind after you've said your leaving, however, I still hope you reconsider your decision. While I may agree to an extent that you do include the subject of racism in most subjects and that may seem tiring to some, I also understand when that when one is scarred in life, talking about it as often as needed is part of the healing process.

I think good moderating is like good umpiring, the less obvious the better. While at times I wish certain things could be moderated, that usually only happens to me when I'm feeling sensitive. I do believe all things said from moderators can and should be done in the open so other members can comment on the moderating as well as general posts. That said, moderators are human too and they make mistakes as I believe was the case with the pm you received. For the most part, I think the members in this forum can handle the vast majority of problens that occur. The moderators will become more comfortable with that idea as time pass'.

Good luck to you if you decide to not return.

[JoshJ]

I'm really not a fan of the moderation of ubuntu-related stuff in general (#ubuntu is absolutely terrible) and if this place continues slipping to the authoritarian side of things I'll leave here also.

There was no basis for the moderators to tell Fanon to shut up, as he had legitimate points.

[bns]

I don't really have a problem with what the moderator did in this situation. Using the word 'nonsense' may have been a bit much, but no posts were deleted, no actual action was taken. If Fanon really wanted to stay, then it seems to me he would have continued to post. If at some point the moderator(s) did take action, then he could have privately argued his case with them. He made the decision to leave, no one forced him to go. Some here have been a bit aggressive toward him, but by and large I think most people have been open and friendly with Fanon. It's a shame he feels the need to leave rather than stay and work things out.

[c.dric]

Originally Posted by Fanon Because other countries with relatively homogenous ethnic populations have organized working classes that have long overcome all of these problems, I maintain that race is the # 1 social, political and economic issue for citizens of the US. I believe that we, the people of this country can win on all of these issues if we work together and cease to be racially divided. This will take work but we can do it.

you have great goals that i support entirely, but maybe you should rework your strategy. as dr phil would say : "how is that working for you?"

[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by Fanon This will be my final post on socialdiscussions.com I am African. ... It is my belief that racism is used to divide the regular folks in the country creating a situation where we are 1) The only post-industrial country on the planet in which the people have not come together and demanded universal healthcare. Other countries have had it for at least a half century. At least. 2) The country with the highest percentage of its citizenry forced to sit in cages. We call it prison. 3) Some of the largest cities on Earth with the worst mass transit infrastructure. 4) The largest wealth inequality of all post-industrial countries with average CEO pay at big companies being 400 times the average production worker's compensation.

LOL, you must really be kicking yourself for moving to America. Can you afford to get back home to the land of milk and honey?

Cya, wouldn't want to be ya'.

[bapoumba]

Hi everyone!
I feel no need to justify myself here, as we got to talk it over among staff prior I PM Fanon. I will post the whole PM I sent him, along with the warning. None of Fanon's posts were edited, none were removed from the public part of the forums, his ability to post was not impaired in any way.

Originally Posted by my PM to Fanon Dear Fanon, You have received a warning at Social Forums. Reason: ------- please stop with your racial nonsense, we're getting tired Fanon, sorry it took a little time to warn you on that post. Things had to be set up in the infraction panel. This is a warning, 0 points for 10 days. FYI, we can give 0 (warning) to 15 points (ban) from 1 hour to eternity. All staff agree here: you wont go anywhere with anyone on these forums along the racial road. These forums are international, all sensitivities, all countries, all ethnic backgrounds (one human race for me: homo sapiens), all social conditions, whatever else you can think of. No one will come out front and say "hello, I'm white and racist, let's talked together". You will never get what you want. So please, for the sake of peace, stop posting over and over the same thing. Regards, bapoumba. -------

As part of this PM was made public, it is better now that the whole thing gets public.

[rjwood]

Originally Posted by bapoumba Hi everyone! I feel no need to justify myself here, as we got to talk it over among staff prior I PM Fanon. I will post the whole PM I sent him, along with the warning. None of Fanon's posts were edited, none were removed from the public part of the forums, his ability to post was not impaired in any way.

That is part of the problem. You should feel the need to justify your actions as I have to justify mine to you. Moderatorship should not exempt you from being equal to the population at large.

Originally Posted by bapoumba As part of this PM was made public, it is better now that the whole thing gets public.

The warning was completely unwarranted in my view as was the private message. I am disappointed in the entire situation. People have the ability to put members on ignore if they don't like their views and the members as a whole have the ability to censure through collective authority. Oh well, perhaps there will be lessons learned through this.

bapoumba, I do think you have a little bit of an itchy finger. You must understand that in a sociall environment such as this, uncomfortable conversations are going to happen.

BTW--I believe this infraction point system is petty, you should do away with it...

[matthew]

Originally Posted by rjwood That is part of the problem. You should feel the need to justify your actions as I have to justify mine to you. Moderatorship should not exempt you from being equal to the population at large.

The entire staff discussed the matter before she wrote the PM. We all felt her actions were justified because the consistent posting of the same issue, specifically in a divisive manner, will only lead to discord and anger. Nearly all topics are open for discussion here, but when the same discussion is started repeatedly with an attempt to disguise it, and particularly a discussion that starts off with a "you are all bigots" tone, it does not lead to community, it leads to a fracture and disintegration of community. That is the main point of the matter being addressed in the manner in which it was addressed.

Originally Posted by rjwood The warning was completely unwarranted in my view as was the private message. I am disappointed in the entire situation. People have the ability to put members on ignore if they don't like their views and the members as a whole have the ability to censure through collective authority. Oh well, perhaps there will be lessons learned through this.

The entire staff disagreed. We felt the warning was warranted as the user had received several complaints and was unnecessarily divisive in his attempts to address his chosen topic. Moderation here is extremely light, but that doesn't mean we want to have a "Lord of the Flies" scenario.

Originally Posted by rjwood bapoumba, I do think you have a little bit of an itchy finger. You must understand that in a sociall environment such as this, uncomfortable conversations are going to happen.

Uncomfortable conversations are welcome. Repeated attempts to make the same accusations, because you weren't agreed with or listened to the first several times, are not welcome.

Fanon was heard. He was listened to. He was not censored. In the end, he couldn't handle the fact that some (many?) users disagreed with him, so he started other threads and attempted (poorly) to disguise them as being on different topics, while actually posting the exact same opinions and arguments. That gets tiresome. Discussion is a two-way street, not a monologue that requires the assent of the listener.

Sorry, rj, I wholeheartedly agree with bapoumba on this issue.

Originally Posted by rjwood BTW--I believe this infraction point system is petty, you should do away with it...

Wow. I hate to disappoint you twice in the same post, but this isn't going away.

When an infraction is issued (has anyone noticed that Fanon only received a warning here, and never an actual infraction??) a copy of both the original post and the comments by the staff member are posted in a place where they cannot be modified. This prevents any sort of "he said, she said" problem as the original statements remain intact.

[rjwood]

I'm not disappointed with the fact you disagree with me at all, matthew, that is a right of all. I stand by what I have said. People who complain to moderators through the pm system are more the problem than those they complain about. Let them make their complaint public in the thread they disagree with so the other members can talk about it too. Let a warning be public only after you have a consensus which includes membership.

So, you may believe Fanon attempted to be clever with his insistence of bringing up race. No big deal! He is a person who feels the need to do that. There were those of us who had told him he should think about toning it down. People don't grow through official censorship, they learn though majority insistance, for however long it takes that what they are saying, either in style, context or content is not working, they then learn to evolve in their thinking and mature in the way they communicate.

[matthew]

Originally Posted by rjwood People who complain to moderators through the pm system are more the problem than those they complain about.

Sometimes, but not always. I think we are pretty good at sorting them out. Believe me, compared to what is reported both here and at UF, we only act on a small number of things. I would rather have something that makes a person uncomfortable be reported, so that we can look into the matter, than have a person simply leave. Sometimes they are dead on accurate and action does need to be taken. Besides, without the "report post" function, half of the forum spam that exists would never be dealt with. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater...the abuse of the system by some users does not make the system bad.

Originally Posted by rjwood Let them make their complaint public in the thread they disagree with so the other members can talk about it too. Let a warning be public only after you have a consensus which includes membership.

I think the complaints were made very publicly by several users in multiple threads before a PM was ever sent.

Um, how do you make a warning public only after achieving consensus...doesn't the matter become public during the consensus acquisition phase?? What if it is simply a misunderstanding and bringing the matter before the entire public will cause irreparable harm to a user's reputation? Should we PM all members and get input from everyone in secret ballots before doing anything?

I understand what you want to achieve, I think. My point is that we were working in a way that shows respect to Fanon by attempting to deal with the issue behind the scenes, giving him a chance for direct dialogue with the staff, with no actual consequences. If he had responded with a, "You know, I don't think I am posting the same thing over and over and here's how my threads are actually different," followed by a direct line discussion with a little openness on his end to see how and why his posting was being understood in the manner in which it was, we wouldn't have all the drama and he could still be a happy user posting his opinions all over the forums.

We attempted to have a discreet dialogue (direct, but not in the public eye) so that there would be absolutely no loss of face on his part. He is the one who chose to make a public ruckus and thereby invite public comment.

Originally Posted by rjwood So, you may believe Fanon attempted to be clever with his insistence of bringing up race. No big deal! He is a person who feels the need to do that. There were those of us who had told him he should think about toning it down. People don't grow through official censorship, they learn though majority insistence, for however long it takes that what they are saying, either in style, context or content is not working, they then learn to evolve in their thinking and mature in the way they communicate.

We are not all the same. Some people learn the way you describe. Others do not. Fanon had ample opportunities to learn, from forums users that commented to him in the manner in which you describe, that his style, tone, and attempts to express his opinion were being ineffective. He could have changed that. He didn't and was therefore asked directly, but discreetly, by a staff member to change.

By the way, you keep saying, "censorship." I would like to express yet again that at no time were posts modified, deleted, or suppressed. No censorship occurred, "officially" or unofficially. It is a false accusation.

[MRiGnS]

but there was no censorship...

[rjwood]

being told he is being warned is not the proper way to open dialogue. Your right, there was no censorship in that his words were changed, however, he was pre-censored based on past posts.

In regards to your questions on 'how', I suggest moderators simply let the dialogue happen and be part of the conversations if necessary. A moderator could say in a thread that they have been receiving private complaints concerning the subject and offer up the concerns expressed including their own opinions, other members can then participate in those concerns as well. At some point, in a clever way, a moderator can give a general public warning after outlining and discussing the problems. The person or people in question would most likely know the warning is directed at them, if not, then a private warning or, better yet, conversation can ensue. My opinion is, once it reaches a personal level and there is still no staifactory results with a moderator, then either you or brandx should personally step in or simply ban the user.

I understand the difficulties and concerns over at ubuntu forums, that is why I stopped using it for general discussions.

I realize you probably get inundated at times with complaints. However, that is part of moderating. You know very well, matthew, I think most of you do a great job. I simply think your wrong on this one, thats all. Fanon may have seemed like a pest to some but that is part of being human. And your right about us not all being the same. I would submit, however, when it comes to being an official, you must treat all the same, that is why official reactions and responses should be rare.

[fuscia]

racism: the new ketchup. put it on everything. fanon, your arguments have embarrassed opposition to racism. in my view, you owe it to that cause to rethink your approach.

[rjwood]

Originally Posted by fuscia racism: the new ketchup. put it on everything. fanon, your arguments have embarrassed opposition to racism. in my view, you owe it to that cause to rethink your approach.

That is fair criticism, fuscia. I get the impression fanon is somewhat young and developing. I just don't think he needed a warning. Dialogue yes, warning no...

[fuscia]

Originally Posted by rjwood That is fair criticism, fuscia. I get the impression fanon is somewhat young and developing. I just don't think he needed a warning. Dialogue yes, warning no...

i'm not into warnings and all that stuff. my comment was in response to fanon's view of the role of racism in the problems of the world.