Ed and Elaine Brown - Page 2

seisen · 06-22-2007

I see your point, like with the Iraq war, not all the people in the government are for it but it seems like everybody is because we are at war.

Nukkepöksy · 06-22-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjwood

Well, I may have spoken out of turn. I thought I read a few days ago they did have kids. I connot find that again though. So, they may not have children. Sorry if i mis-spoke.

Oh thank god!

rjwood · 06-22-2007

I must admit, after reading this; We The People Foundation
I am somewhat sympathetic to their cause. It seems the court has taken a rather arrogant posture in their case. He should be allowed to present his defense under the conditions he wishes. I have personally witnessed courts not being fair and impartial. So, perhaps something good will come out of this.

seisen · 06-22-2007

Go to here and listen to what these people say, in the video.

YouTube - Ed & Elaine Brown Talk to Media-June 18, 2007

They start talking about the freemasons.

Nukkepöksy · 06-22-2007

So what exactly is "income"?

rjwood · 06-22-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nukkepöksy

So what exactly is "income"?

wages and salaries.

yaaarrrgg · 06-22-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjwood

I must admit, after reading this; We The People Foundation
I am somewhat sympathetic to their cause. It seems the court has taken a rather arrogant posture in their case. He should be allowed to present his defense under the conditions he wishes. I have personally witnessed courts not being fair and impartial. So, perhaps something good will come out of this.

That's an interesting article... I agree he should get a fair trial.

Although I think he's supposed to do what the judge orders, and then appeal that decision afterwards. Ultimately, he needs to take it to a higher court. The current tax code is about 2.8 million words (I think), and would probably result in a very long and expensive trial.

From his quotes though, it seems like he's a comspiracy theorist:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Brown

1992-1993 (Age 50-51): “I was deeply disturbed over Waco. I was paranoid for one year. I read a lot. I learned about the illuminati and the new world order. I determined there was a criminal element within the Administration, the Executive Branch.”

So, it's not so surprising that he's refusing to cooperate with the legal system.

IMO he's fighting a losing battle. In our system, even rich people can't get away with cheating on their taxes.

rjwood · 06-22-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaaarrrgg

That's an interesting article... I agree he should get a fair trial.

Although I think he's supposed to do what the judge orders, and then appeal that decision afterwards. Ultimately, he needs to take it to a higher court. The current tax code is about 2.8 million words (I think), and would probably result in a very long and expensive trial.

From his quotes though, it seems like he's a comspiracy theorist:

So, it's not so surprising that he's refusing to cooperate with the legal system.

IMO he's fighting a losing battle. In our system, even rich people can't get away with cheating on their taxes.

I wonder if they have had any attorneys willing to help out. According to the people who wrote the article, the judges rulings made it basically impossible to appeal. Perhaps The IRS should just answer the question he is posing. Unless of course he is correct in his reading of the constitution.

I watch the Newshour with Jim Lerher each evening and I have yet to see this on that broadcast. I wonder why...I don't watch any other news stations besides a couple on sunday mornings.

rjwood · 06-22-2007

This is what the 16th amendment says;

“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”

What is their argument?

LordFu · 06-22-2007

The Supreme Court ruled that the income tax is unconstitutional.

The 16th amendment was "ratified" (not really but for arguements sake)

The Supreme Court rules in several cases that the 16th amendment gives the government no new powers of taxation, meaning the income tax is still unconstitutional. One of the justices even points out that the 16th amendment was "clearly not properly ratified".

Citations to come.

yaaarrrgg · 06-22-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by rjwood

This is what the 16th amendment says;

“The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”

What is their argument?

I think he'd probably use a legal strategy like the Chewbacca defense

Edit: Hmmm ... this seems to describe most of the stock Tax protester arguments

rjwood · 06-22-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by yaaarrrgg

I think he'd probably use a legal strategy like the Chewbacca defense

Edit: Hmmm ... this seems to describe most of the stock Tax protester arguments

Now I think I understand why the judge was not willing to listen to all the old arguments. thanks for the links.

LordFu · 06-22-2007

The definition of income is profit, not all your money is income, either, but that isn't the way the law is applied.

You can dismiss these arguements out-of-hand, but they have support in SCOTUS decisions. It helps to realise that there are an enormous number of federal employees, accountants, elected officials, etc. who's vested interest is in maintaining the status quo.

There arguement isn't that the government doesn't have the power to tax income, only that it's doing it wrong. Is that so far-fetched?

Irwin Schiff gives away his book on the subject, which I'm sure explains it better than I could.

Federal Mafia

rjwood · 06-22-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordFu

The definition of income is profit, not all your money is income, either, but that isn't the way the law is applied.

You can dismiss these arguements out-of-hand, but they have support in SCOTUS decisions.

Irwin Schiff gives away his book on the subject, which I'm sure explains it better than I could.

Federal Mafia

I'm willing to listen to a sensible argument. But as for what you define as income is not what the 16th amendment says in my view. I'll read the mafia thing anyway. However, just so you understand, even the title itself suggests non-serious talk..

EDIT: How is the federal government stopping him from selling his book? My first impression is he is giving it away for free because he couldn't sell it and is using the federal government as an excuse. If I'm right about that, it totally destroys his credibility

rjwood · 06-22-2007

I haven't seen Utabintarbo in almost a week. Maybe he took some vacation time and went to N.H. to be with the Browns..

LordFu · 06-22-2007

They issued an injunction preventing him from selling the book.

rjwood · 06-22-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordFu

They issued an injunction preventing him from selling the book.

How do you know that for sure? and can you link me to the supreme court decision you cited earlier?

LordFu · 06-22-2007

Irwin Schiff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damn, man, this information isn't hard to come by.

rjwood · 06-22-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordFu

Irwin Schiff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damn, man, this information isn't hard to come by.

I suck at this stuff, fu. Ask anyone who knows me.. I am not a geek. I just like hanging out with them..

LordFu · 06-22-2007

LoL, no problem.

View Poll Results: Do you support Ed and Elaine Brown?
Yes	4	36.36%
No	6	54.55%
Don't know	1	9.09%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

06-22-2007	#21 (permalink)
seisen Humanitarian Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 723	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown I see your point, like with the Iraq war, not all the people in the government are for it but it seems like everybody is because we are at war.
seisen Humanitarian Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 723

06-22-2007	#23 (permalink)
rjwood Long Gone For Good Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,236	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown I must admit, after reading this; We The People Foundation I am somewhat sympathetic to their cause. It seems the court has taken a rather arrogant posture in their case. He should be allowed to present his defense under the conditions he wishes. I have personally witnessed courts not being fair and impartial. So, perhaps something good will come out of this.
	Long Gone For Good

06-22-2007	#24 (permalink)
seisen Humanitarian Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 723	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown Go to here and listen to what these people say, in the video. YouTube - Ed & Elaine Brown Talk to Media-June 18, 2007 They start talking about the freemasons.
seisen Humanitarian Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 723

06-22-2007	#25 (permalink)
Nukkepöksy Commentator Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 46	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown So what exactly is "income"?
	Our separation from each other is an optical illusion of conciousness. - Albert Einstein Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive. - Dalai Lama

06-22-2007	#29 (permalink)
rjwood Long Gone For Good Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,236	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown This is what the 16th amendment says; “The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.” What is their argument? Last edited by rjwood : 06-22-2007 at 03:41 PM.
	Long Gone For Good

06-22-2007	#30 (permalink)
LordFu I see the Fnords. Join Date: May 2007 Location: Columbia, MO Posts: 830	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown The Supreme Court ruled that the income tax is unconstitutional. The 16th amendment was "ratified" (not really but for arguements sake) The Supreme Court rules in several cases that the 16th amendment gives the government no new powers of taxation, meaning the income tax is still unconstitutional. One of the justices even points out that the 16th amendment was "clearly not properly ratified". Citations to come.
	For just an instant, have a glimpse, a vision, of life through my eyes. It is a staggeringly joyous perspective, a view of how each person's choices can make their own life better. It is a vision of the possible, of how things can and should be.

06-22-2007	#33 (permalink)
LordFu I see the Fnords. Join Date: May 2007 Location: Columbia, MO Posts: 830	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown The definition of income is profit, not all your money is income, either, but that isn't the way the law is applied. You can dismiss these arguements out-of-hand, but they have support in SCOTUS decisions. It helps to realise that there are an enormous number of federal employees, accountants, elected officials, etc. who's vested interest is in maintaining the status quo. There arguement isn't that the government doesn't have the power to tax income, only that it's doing it wrong. Is that so far-fetched? Irwin Schiff gives away his book on the subject, which I'm sure explains it better than I could. Federal Mafia Last edited by LordFu : 06-22-2007 at 04:50 PM.
	For just an instant, have a glimpse, a vision, of life through my eyes. It is a staggeringly joyous perspective, a view of how each person's choices can make their own life better. It is a vision of the possible, of how things can and should be.

06-22-2007	#35 (permalink)
rjwood Long Gone For Good Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,236	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown I haven't seen Utabintarbo in almost a week. Maybe he took some vacation time and went to N.H. to be with the Browns..
	Long Gone For Good

06-22-2007	#36 (permalink)
LordFu I see the Fnords. Join Date: May 2007 Location: Columbia, MO Posts: 830	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown They issued an injunction preventing him from selling the book.
	For just an instant, have a glimpse, a vision, of life through my eyes. It is a staggeringly joyous perspective, a view of how each person's choices can make their own life better. It is a vision of the possible, of how things can and should be.

06-22-2007	#38 (permalink)
LordFu I see the Fnords. Join Date: May 2007 Location: Columbia, MO Posts: 830	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown Irwin Schiff - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Damn, man, this information isn't hard to come by.
	For just an instant, have a glimpse, a vision, of life through my eyes. It is a staggeringly joyous perspective, a view of how each person's choices can make their own life better. It is a vision of the possible, of how things can and should be.

06-22-2007	#40 (permalink)
LordFu I see the Fnords. Join Date: May 2007 Location: Columbia, MO Posts: 830	Re: Ed and Elaine Brown LoL, no problem.
	For just an instant, have a glimpse, a vision, of life through my eyes. It is a staggeringly joyous perspective, a view of how each person's choices can make their own life better. It is a vision of the possible, of how things can and should be.