isn't it so that most countries have been formed by federating smaller entities that were once fiercely independent ?

i find it perfectly 'natural' to fight and even die for your loved ones but i think nationalism, patriotism and even religions are tools to put artificial walls between people and get them to fight and die for someone else's benefit.

i'm convinced that the less nationalist & patriotic we are the better we will fare as a society.

Much like the fanatical/fundamentalist* areas of religion - nationalism and patriotism is a dangerous feeling that only inspires people to violence and bigotry. It's also a nearly always essential reason for public support for a war.

*fundamentalism without fanaticism isn't necessarily dangerous

I think nationalism to an extent is important. It gives you a "home" that you feel comfort in. You can give a little and take a little back in the comfort of safety and the common feeling of pride within your neighbors. However, I think in today's world too much nationalism is very dangerous. To me, the way people generally feel for their states in the United States is a nice balance. I wouldn't die for my state, but I feel happy to be part of it and I try to give a little back. And people (post Civil War at least) won't use states as a basis for violence. It's a nice balance.

I think as a whole 'patriotism' is a bad thing. Now, I'll qualify that by saying that I don't see that having pride in your town, ensuring it looks nice and is clean/safe is part of patriotism.

I think all countries should form a truce and give most of their power to the UN, and a global peace keeping army needs to be built up. And no trying to convert countries to different forms of government. That would be idealistic but probly wouldn't work in real life. Nationalism gets in the way of this, it must die.

You clearly haven't spent enough time in the deep redneck south. The people here are ridiculous.

Yeah I know what you mean. But still, I don't see people starting major violence (numerous homicides / war) over state pride. What I'm saying is that this extent of "nationalism," although not for a nation but instead a state, is small enough to still get some benefits without causing mass violence towards and opposing "nation".

I don't think the Confederate pride shit is beneficial at all. If anything it's even more damaging to society.

Confederate pride is the opposite of my argument but never mind, I don't want to start an argument. I was just saying stuff floating around in my head anyway, I don't have a diehard point.

I think it rather depends. from one angle, I DO take pride in where I live, (Though right now the US is rather rediculious).
And, I dont believe patriotism is at all bad, however, I'm taking about TRUE patriotism, not this "Rah-rah America" crap that Bush is spreading.

Being patriotic should be towards the IDEALS that were set in place, not towards some meaningless symbol, or corrupt leader.

If people were truely patriotic, I doubt they would put up with the crap that is going on now a days.

"If you dont support this war, you're unpatriotic"

really? cause as far as I can tell, this war is oppresive, and completely AGAINST all the "freedom and liberty" we pretend to have.

good job Republican party, you've managed to find a new way to call someone a witch ("you're not patriotic!").

These feelings, when taken too far, most often cause wars. It's ok to love your country, and wish it's the best country out there, but when this goes over the top, humans kill humans for silly reasons.
Sigh... Why can't all humans get along?

Extreme Coder

No, I'm not a big fan of patriotism. In fact, I think it ranks among one of the greater scourges of humanity, right up there with taxes and death, because patriotism seems to cause people not to mind the other two.

Well said. I agree 100% to that statement. Patriotism is nationalism in disguise. And defenitely a bad thing (at least the way it is used to subvert some people, like in the US and Russia).

That said I do not think there is anything with a love for the place where you live.

I don't like either one and according to George W. Bush this would make us terrorists. So keep an eye out for those black unmarked SUVS with government license plates.

Not new at all. The term "unamerican" was coined during WWII for exactly the same reason, and promoted anti-german and anti-japanese sentiment. Most things we see have been here before...

good within reason!?

HEAR! HEAR!

Your last sentence doesn't make much sense.

I'm patriotic and committed to my country because my country has been good to me in terms of protecting my freedom, opportunity, etc. When I went to Iraq, Afghanistan, and all the other shit holes it wasn't for someone else, it was ultimately for my own self-interest.

You feel that death and taxes are on par with patriotism? Death is a part of life, just like everything else. And, well, taxes, while they aren't the greatest thing in the world, without them the government would just gain access to your money in other ways. I'm not sure what country you are from, but here in the States they call the other way "Shoving bonds down your throat." I think things like ignoring an entire continent going hungry as a black spot on humanity, not taxes. Even then, I'm not sure that patriotism matches that. Patriotism used in the wrong context is a bad thing, which means in most cases it's a bad thing. Either way you look at ignoring Africa, it's always bad.