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You understanding is interesting, I don't know nearly enough to answer but it seems as if both view points are buried in the visa versa.

Even when you talk of honour in the East there is still law, a kind of law that shames you if you do something wrong, the punishment is from the community and it is the same thing we have in the west but we talk about it differently calling it reputation.

In the west we have notorious criminals that have honour through one way or another, daring fears or bare arsed cheek in robbery and we celebrate them. think about robbin hood.

I'm not sure it's a clearly divided and I'm pretty sure each system feeds each of the other systems in play in complex ways. perhaps after all they are just two different ways of looking at the same human nature.

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I was discussing this with a co-worker recently. He's half Korean, and we were talking about the VT shooter who is Korean. The Korean government actually apologized to the world for what Cho did. Everyone was asking my coworker why they were doing this and he said "you don't understand. In America, it would be some crazy guy shooting some people, but in Korea, not only has the country failed with him, but he has dishonored the whole country and shamed his family."

There's a point to honor, and I think it's lost on most westerners, but on the other hand, the East puts so much into it that they think it's a failure on their part when someone snaps.

Still, I think I'd like to have more of a sense of honor here.

For many European/ North American people the 'East' is often percieved as one bulk. However there is absolutely nothing in common between East Asia and the Middle East ,except that they are both georgraphiaclly situated east of Europe.

If anything Middle Eastern culture is much closer to Western culture than to Confucian culture. Islamic culture has the same philosophic roots (Greek) and religious roots (Monotheism) as Europe.

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I haven't traveled in either, but I think the point of honor and shame is valid throughout the far East and the Middle East, based on what I've read. Don't believe everything that you read though...

It's not

I have lived in both societies and I feel there is absolutely no base for comparison, except for the fact that we are all human beings and we share many similiraties that go beyond culture. However when it comes to culture - Japan must be the exact opposite of Egypt.
yes , that is a wise advice

Hello everyone,

An interesting topic, however I find myself disagreeing with what I feel is a rather simplified comparison. The thread starter claims that 'Western' culture is 'based' on the rule of law, and that 'Middle Eastern' culture is based on shame and honour.

As a European (born and raised here) of Arab roots, as someone with one foot in either 'cultural world' I must say that I cannot accept this comparison. I understand that this is matthews personal observation and I accept it as such, but I would like to add some points which must be mentioned.

First of all, the cultures of European states for example, are not based on the rule of law. The rule of law may play a role in the culture, but the culture does not find it's origin in the rule of law, nor is the rule of law the driving force that shapes the culture. Culture is also too broad a term to be defined merely by the rule of law; what of music, the arts, social norms and behavioural traits and customs? Is all this defined merely by what is right and what is wrong in the West and by shame and honour in the Middle East? Definately not.

Shame and honour in Europe play a large role too, although granted perhaps not on the same level as in the Middle East. Here they are called 'prestige' and 'scandal'. Many people pretend to be/or are, rich, cool, educated or powerful. They do this in order to impress their peers and gain respect, why else would you buy a sports car, a large mansion or go to places where you can be seen and admired?. Scandal (by most) is avoided where possible and this is the equivalent of shame. People here in Europe are equally impressed by the extremes (the extremely rich, the extremely powerful, the famous) this is the same as your observation of the Middle East where respect is gained through perhaps being rich, powerful etc...

Another extremely important fact that must be mentioned is as follows: the Middle East is dominated by dictatorships today, these weaken their own legal systems and rules of law by being corrupt. In just about all these dictatorships you can get almost all legal issues 'solved' through bribery, hence the respect towards the law is diminished since not even the governing bodies will respect it.

Anyone who has studied the history of the Middle East will notice that it was not always like this. At certain points throughout history, especially during the golden period of Islamic rule (the hight of laws, science, medecine, architecture. The seed of the European renaissance), laws played a much larger role in daily life and 'culture'.

Finally, perhaps you have overlooked that in the Middle East, which is dominated by the Islamic faith, the idea of what is right and what is wrong plays an equally if not larger role compared to Europe and the West. Perhaps the role of right and wrong is greater in the Middle East where people are more religious? So there needs to be a clarification concerning the level at which one is viewing a society. There are many levels and facets.

What I am trying to say is that one must realise that an observation may rest on the tiny window available to us based on the milieu we find ourself in when in another country.

Regards
PE.

PE, thank you. That was very interesting.

hi,

i think comparison between societies mostly failed in orientalism (as well as occidentalism). i don't belive in comparing different cultures. because when we are comparing cultures we mostly need a scale. it mostly happened with modernism which can be traced back to "enlightment era". i don't want to reach to post-modernist attitude but most of the cultural troubles came up with that idea.

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we can also label this as cultural imperialism or we can label it as globalisation (globalisation sound a-political). under 30's learn the life through television, internet, movies etc. i don't want to mark any significant culture but it's clear that "market" is dominated by american culture & lifestyle. we are slightly going to be one-dimensional entities & mono-cultured people (i referred herbert marcuse & frankfurt school).

i wish that we could have similar feelings towards peace.

How so?...please explain

(this is meant for seshomaru samma specifically)

How does 'cultural imperialism' fit here?

who knows?

The reason I chose Japan and Egypt is because they are both cultural centres ,perhaps the most important ones in their region. In my post I am referring to the present only, things might have been different in the past.
First let me qualify what I said, comparing two cultures is a tricky business, some might want to view from one aspect and others give importance to other aspects.
Do you think Germany and Hong Kong are similar ? If viewed from a culinary perspective -I'm afraid there is very little in common, if viewed from 'work ethics' point of view then there is a case (which can be argued ad infinum) that both the Germans and the Cantonese are 'hard-working' ,disciplined and place high value on education.
When you compare Islamic thought with Western one , you can see a lot of similarities, this is because they often base their thought on the same sources. I have seen a lot of reference to Aristotle or Plato in Islamic philosophy and of course the influence of Monotheism on both culture is huge.
However when I examine Middle Eastern culture compared with Confucian culture (China, Korea ,Japan) I can find absolutely nothing in common. Not in thought, religion. attitude to human sexuality, strategies of copying with modernity, work ethics, cuisine, art, language etc.
If you can point an area of similarity I would be most interested.

I was hoping Diskotek knows....

I don't like when words like 'imperialism' are used freely whenever there is a referrence to the West and other cultures. If there is a reason ,then I am interested in hearing it....