[Rasczak]

Originally Posted by delilahjed44 Hi Ras.. Jungle juice..I like that, he-he..this is a great hijacked thread.. Sherri

Why would you drink kava Sherri?

[1veedo]

Originally Posted by delilahjed44 Hey 1Veedo.. Are you saying this powder really works? I checked it out and I dont know which site is best to order from if indeed I will. Also I am skeptic because of diabetes..blood pressure and assisting meds attending my physical conditions now.. It sounds rather interesting..what would it do to coffee as far as taste? do you know? I just personally never heard of it.. I drink tons of H20 always..was wondering how that would taste as well.. Sherri

Kava is a taste you have to get used to, most people don't like it. I guess it tastes exactly what you'd think ground up roots would taste like. Kava is known to be very safe, short of heavy prolonged use which is associated with poor nutrition and a rashy skin condition, which is fairly harmless itself (people drink this stuff heavily 24/7 in some parts of the world, often times 400+ grams per week). Kava supplements have been associated with liver problems because they often contain other parts of the plant. According to wikipedia, "Although kava root does not cause liver toxicity, there is evidence of health concerns among heavy drinkers, including poor nutrition and a rise in liver enzymes." They say people put off eating in order to drink kava because it's absorbed better on an empty stomach...

Chemically it might lower your blood pressure because some of the active chemicals work as a calcium channel blocker, reducing afterload on your heart and all that.

Why is it you would want to drink kava? I could give you a website if it's not against forum rules. From what I've read on erowid you have to find good quality kava or it's not worth it.

Btw I drink lots of water. That and green tea I rarely drink anything else (besides kava).

Originally Posted by Rasczak I hope you've consulted a professional about this. Drinking jungle juice isn't how you deal with these kinds of things.

I drank jungle juice once lol. Yeah I don't know I havn't talked to my doctor about it. Kava is fat soluble, meaning that like another popular therapeutic drug (marijuana) it has a cumulative effect so the more you drink it the stronger it is and the longer its after-effects last (the opposite of drug tolerance). I used to drink something like 3 glasses some nights at college and would always feel the effects lasting well through the morning or whenever I woke up (positive effects, mind you, kind of like the opposite of a hangover).

As far as I'm aware I only have autism and there aren't any known treatments for autism. Many people with autism take benzos though and kava has properties similar to benzo, except it's safer (kava has a lot of different properties lol). This isn't entirely why I drink it though. I know from personal experience what it does. When you have something like kava that fixes everything instantly and makes you feel better it's kind of hard not to use it. And it's not like I follow a drug schedule or anything, some days I drink more than others it just depends.

Btw, U.S. Pharmacist

[kevmartin]

What I find interesting is this discussion about a recreational drug and all its wonderful properties (besides getting you high) - it takes a whole different tone to what one would expect of a parallel discussion about a recreational drug that has been illegalised widely, like, say, marijuana.

When it comes down to it, that's what kava is - a recreational drug.

[1veedo]

True. So is marijuana, and a lot of other drugs.

I actually wanted to say this in my last post but didn't know how to say it (last paragraph there I was trying to figure out how to word it). The line between "recreational" and therapeutic is a fairly grey line. When you go to the doctor and get pain killers or some other medicine the reason you do it is to feel better. I haven't really gotten high of kava sense coming home, mainly because it's weird and it wouldn't be that fun around here, but getting drunk or high isn't the definition of "recreational"; after all caffeine is a recreational drug and people usually don't think of it that way. Hell people who pop pain killers aren't cognitively impaired unless they go overboard. I guess you can go through and define the terms rigorously enough so that every drug would fall into a certain category but then you're just missing the point (like where some people view taking headache pills as a form of recreational drug use). You just have to be careful about equivocations I guess.

Kava is very well known for it's anxiolytic effects; peer-review has demonstrated it to be just as effective as most benzos that are currently prescribed for anxiety and at the same time it has fewer risks and fewer side-effects (FYI benzo is a "get you high" drug). The only reason it isn't used medically, especially in the US where the FDA makes a very clear distinction between herbal products and prescriptions, is because pharmaceutical companies can't make money off a plant (because they cant patent it, same reason drug companies lobby to keep marijuana illegal). It's sad really that the pharmaceutical industry is so corrupt but that's just the way it is. Another example is st. john's wort which, in Europe, is a first line prescription for mild to moderate depression whereas in the US you can buy the stuff at any vitamin store.

[kevmartin]

Originally Posted by 1veedo Kava is very well known for it's anxiolytic effects;...

So is heroin

For the record, I don't have a problem personally with people choosing to use any recreational drugs they fancy. The only real issue is when there are secondary effects, such as:

1. Things they do under the effect of the drugs, where their impaired perception may endanger others (particularly, but not only, driving).

2. Things they may do to harm others in order to obtain money to feed their addiction (particularly various crimes).

[1veedo]

Well, I agree with you.

For the record kava isn't addictive and, like marijuana, would be more likely to reduce the risk of someone getting into a fight or something (whereas alcohol is known to cause fights).

Also I think there is a bit of a distinction between recreational and therapeutic drug use. Like I said it depends on how you're using the word. For example people taking LSD to trip out vs people taking pain killers because they have a broken arm vs people taking pain killers just because they like the effects of pain killers vs people smoking weed because they have multiple sclerosis.

Marijuana is actually used medically by many people who don't directly even have a defined or diagnosed medical condition. Marijuana treats a wide range of mood disorders for example which often times are left without a specific diagnosis (just a DSM "non-specific" type diagnosis) or the sufferer never seeks medical attention. Many people smoking marijuana for such a problem may be completely unaware that they have a mental problem, they just know from experience that marijuana makes them feel better and helps them live their life throughout the day.

[kevmartin]

Hmmm ... well if you are going to acknowledge emotional/psychological-based motivations for using drugs, then I think it is only reasonable to also acknowledge emotional/psychological addictions. And I have no doubt that kava is psychologically addictive.

To see if one is using a drug recreationally or therapeutically, I think one can ask oneself questions such as 'am I doing this for enjoyment, or to take away pain?' Smoking grass because otherwise I get in a bit of a bad mood to me suggests psychological addiction to a recreational drug.

[pkslot]

Originally Posted by kevmartin Hmmm ... well if you are going to acknowledge emotional/psychological-based motivations for using drugs, then I think it is only reasonable to also acknowledge emotional/psychological addictions. And I have no doubt that kava is psychologically addictive. To see if one is using a drug recreationally or therapeutically, I think one can ask oneself questions such as 'am I doing this for enjoyment, or to take away pain?' Smoking grass because otherwise I get in a bit of a bad mood to me suggests psychological addiction to a recreational drug.

Well i think that's a line that's hard to draw.

I'll honestly admit that i like a good joint every once in a while, but it's not an addiction. At least thats not how i see it. My wife and i will occasionally light up a joint, but it's not more than once every couple of months. I don't consider that an addiction, but if one was to light it up every day or every second day, it's more of a problem, than it's an enjoyment.

The same goes for every (mild) intoxicant out there , if it's under control and not a mis-use (don't even know if that's a word?) it's ok.

I know a girl with multiple sclerosis, who smokes a little more often than me, but thats an other thing. Her doctor recommended her to smoke marijuana every once in a while, to keep the illness in ave, and she's doing quite fine i think. It's not every day or every second day either. Her condition comes and goes in "waves" and so does her use of weed too, according to what she feels is necessary.

On the other hand, i've seen people giving into the world of drugs. Seen them go, seen them loose control and i've even seen some of them die because of this urge to hide their reality to them selves. Drugs should never be used to soothe this kind of pain, this "weltschmertz". At least not in my opinion, but that goes for illegal as well as for legal drugs.

[1veedo]

I'm not a big fan of drugs. I remember first semester of college I tried alcohol off a whim and, knowing that marijuana is safer for you than alcohol, decided to try that too. Marijuana seems like it would be hard to get addicted to. Alcohol on the other hand seems like something that could be addictive.

And yes kevmartin I was talking about physical addiction; anything can be psychologically addicting. By having done weed and alcohol (and just to set the record strait salvia as well) I can honestly say I'm drinking kava because it really is beneficial. I would do alcohol / weed to have fun "artificially" and it was always in the evening at a designated time, usually planed ahead of time, with other people, and we knew what we were doing and why we were doing it. I have used kava "recreationally," and probably will again when I'm back at college, but even in these cases it was in the same context as above. So I know personally what the difference is.

That isn't really what this was supposed to be about, of course, but whatever. I mean I don't know, I have autism and find things to be very... difficult. The past two months I've been an intern and have been drinking kava at work and it really, really helps. The difference between being socially competent and being run down by external stimuli (fucking highheels always clanking down the hall and people talking loudly two yards from you) is kava.

I'm not going to be one of those people that gets on a forum and complains about things though; I hate reading all the autism forums where people are always complaining about how autism makes things hard for them.

Also of note is that I discovered kava looking for other herbs -- I had tried st john's wort out of curiosity (made things worse, actually, suddenly everything was much brighter than before), ginseng, gluten-free diet + B6 etc just trying different things and I have been most successful with kava.


On an unrelated note the thread has been hijacked for a week now amiright? Time to drink some more kava btw.

[kevmartin]

Originally Posted by pkslot Well i think that's a line that's hard to draw. I'll honestly admit that i like a good joint every once in a while, but it's not an addiction. At least thats not how i see it. My wife and i will occasionally light up a joint, but it's not more than once every couple of months. I don't consider that an addiction, but if one was to light it up every day or every second day, it's more of a problem, than it's an enjoyment. The same goes for every (mild) intoxicant out there , if it's under control and not a mis-use (don't even know if that's a word?) it's ok. I know a girl with multiple sclerosis, who smokes a little more often than me, but thats an other thing. Her doctor recommended her to smoke marijuana every once in a while, to keep the illness in ave, and she's doing quite fine i think. It's not every day or every second day either. Her condition comes and goes in "waves" and so does her use of weed too, according to what she feels is necessary. On the other hand, i've seen people giving into the world of drugs. Seen them go, seen them loose control and i've even seen some of them die because of this urge to hide their reality to them selves. Drugs should never be used to soothe this kind of pain, this "weltschmertz". At least not in my opinion, but that goes for illegal as well as for legal drugs.

Right - it doesn't seem like a hard line to draw from what you describe. The difference between recreation or therapeutic use seems clear enough to me. The examples you give demonstrate that well.

The line of addiction is a harder one to draw, if you acknowledge that psychological addiction is still addiction.

[kevmartin]

Originally Posted by 1veedo I'm not a big fan of drugs. I remember first semester of college I tried alcohol off a whim and, knowing that marijuana is safer for you than alcohol, decided to try that too. Marijuana seems like it would be hard to get addicted to. Alcohol on the other hand seems like something that could be addictive. And yes kevmartin I was talking about physical addiction; anything can be psychologically addicting. By having done weed and alcohol (and just to set the record strait salvia as well) I can honestly say I'm drinking kava because it really is beneficial. I would do alcohol / weed to have fun "artificially" and it was always in the evening at a designated time, usually planed ahead of time, with other people, and we knew what we were doing and why we were doing it. I have used kava "recreationally," and probably will again when I'm back at college, but even in these cases it was in the same context as above. So I know personally what the difference is. That isn't really what this was supposed to be about, of course, but whatever. I mean I don't know, I have autism and find things to be very... difficult. The past two months I've been an intern and have been drinking kava at work and it really, really helps. The difference between being socially competent and being run down by external stimuli (fucking highheels always clanking down the hall and people talking loudly two yards from you) is kava. I'm not going to be one of those people that gets on a forum and complains about things though; I hate reading all the autism forums where people are always complaining about how autism makes things hard for them. Also of note is that I discovered kava looking for other herbs -- I had tried st john's wort out of curiosity (made things worse, actually, suddenly everything was much brighter than before), ginseng, gluten-free diet + B6 etc just trying different things and I have been most successful with kava. On an unrelated note the thread has been hijacked for a week now amiright? Time to drink some more kava btw.

I don't really buy into the idea that there is a clear distinction between something being addictive because it has physical withdrawal symptoms and something not being addictive because it doesn't. Psychological and emotional withdrawals can be more debilitating than physical ones at times, so I don't see the point of drawing that distinction other than to say 'this group of behaviours isn't addictive'.

And again I would point out that I pass no judgment or much care that anyone chooses to take any given substance, or indulge in any behaviour for that matter, as long as it is not to the detriment of others. I sure as hell have no problem with you drinking kava at work to help get you through the day - there's plenty of people who will smoke a little weed to help get them through the day too - I have no problem with that either - if it doesn't impair their ability to perform their job, it's fine with me. And contrary to popular opinion, marijuana can have a vastly different effect on you depending on your built up tolerance and daily usage levels (it doesn't just turn one into a giggling beavis/butthead type). To a heavy user, it can become similar to having a cigarette. To achieve any significant, noticeable mental effect will take consumption of large quantities in a concentrated period.