Over the last several days, I've noticed some things:

People are putting a burden on public transit due to high gas prices.

Where I live, you can't buy a Toyota hybrid - they're sold out, and when they are available, they are selling them over sticker price. High gas prices.

GM is closing down truck-making plants and shifting to smaller car manufacturing. They may even dump the Hummer. Market demand is for fuel efficient cars.

Do you want gas prices to drop?

In America we need cars because of this thing called suburbia. However maybe with high gas prices suburbia will disappear and people will start moving into the cities. So I guess it depends on how it plays out. I'm probably less qualified to commit because I don't drive; the bus works fine for me. Though sometimes I find myself restricted as to what and when I can do things. I live in a relatively rich neighbourhood where people don't seem to mind driving so the bus only comes by 4 times a day.

The people who do "need" cars are shifting toward buying hybrids and smaller cars as a result of the higher gas prices. Is that good news or bad news?

Certainly there is an argument that increased fuel prices in the USA is a good thing. Europe and Australia already play much higher prices for their fuel than you do (but still currently rising mind you - currently about $8.00US per gallon where I live), and many years ago already decreased their fuel consumption drastically as a result. There was a guy on Lehrer show last night (I didn't catch his name - some Pulitzer prize winning scientists character) making this argument, and citing a figure that if the rest of the world consumed oil at the same rate per capita as the USA, the total world consumption would be eleven times what it currently is.

That's a pointless fact BTW. It doesn't take into account our level of productivity per capita compared to the rest of the world for starters.

I pretty much figured you would say that (it wouldn't be you if you didn't leap to the defence of the USA at every opportunity - even when it's not being attacked). Granted it is not a fact that stands alone and entirely independent of other factors - but wasn't intended as such. It's just a general indicator. I'm sure if you care to look for figures on personal fuel consumption you will also find huge differentials. And personally I don't think that the higher level of productivity (a somewhat vague term really - i.e. 'producing' what exactly?) accounts for the total amount of extra oil consumption. There are other countries that are extremely productive (per capita) that don't use anywhere near the USA's (per capita) levels of fuel usage.

Well yes I would say this is good news. They're still not efficient enough though. Gassoline is a commodity that is ultimately in decline so eventually we need to move away from it.


Btw Rasczak pertaining to your discussion with kevmartin we might be the second largest producer of crude oil but we are the worlds largest importer of crude oil so what he said is still valid.

I didn't say anything about how much crude we produce - that had zero to do with my point, I was talking about how productive we are in general. You guys really need to learn how to read, comprehend, and think critically.

Anyway, what are you waiting for? Move away from using gasoline. Get a place to live within bicycling distance from where you work. Buy an electric car.

Gas prices are proportional to crude oil sales.Well I'm talking about as a nation. High gas prices still effect you even if you don't drive as long as everyone else does.

When you don't want to deal with what I did say, just pretend I said something else and respond to that.

The prices will effect you less if you aren't buying any right?

You're part of the nation. You have 100% control over your decisions - make the decision to lead the way and sell your car and ride a bicycle. If everyone does as you, then problem solved, but you can't very well expect everyone else to make changes you're unwilling to make can you?

Be an early adopter. Show everyone how its done. You said "we" need to move away from using gasoline. You are part of "we" right? You act on your beliefs right?

Well, they're not good.

Well no I was talking about what you said to kevmartin still.I wasn't trying to argue anything here I was just pointing out, validly as far as I can tell, that even if you don't consume gas the fact that the rest of the country does still directly effects you. So you cant just say "well I don't drive so I don't give a damn about gas prices; it can be $100/gallon for all I care." Sure you don't have to fill up your car but if the economy is negatively effected that has a direct effect on you as well.

But I didn't say anything about comparing crude oil to gasoline. I said that the fact the U.S. consumes more oil per capita than other nations is irrelevent unless you consider the fact also we are more productive (we generate more wealth) than other nations.


And I never disputed that. And you were trying to argue something here. You argued that "we need to move away from gasoline." Its up there in post #7. You either believe "we need to move away from gasoline" or you don't. If you say "we need move away from gasoline," but you don't move away from gasoline yourself, what does that make you?


We aren't talking about the economy. You said "we need to move away from using gasoline." But it seems you aren't prepared to move away from gasoline until everyone else does or until the government makes you. That makes you a follower, not a leader, which means its not for you to say what everyone else should do, just watch the herd and do what they do.

If, however, you have "moved away from using gasoline" and no longer ride in vehicles that burn it, then you would be in a position to say "we need to move away from using gasoline." Otherwise, at best, you are a hypocrite, and not to be taken seriously because you are taking advantage of the same thing you say others shouldn't.

Irrelevant to what? What are you saying here?You're just misconstruing things here. When I said gas prices still effect you even if you don't directly consume gas I was not saying that we should move away from it. It was an indipendent statement.

But yes I do think we need to move away from gas. "We" as in the country or world. And although I don't buy gas myself I think you can be a car driver and still make that statement; I don't find it hypocritical because you don't have any other options in most places. 50% of Americans live 50 miles or farther from where they work. You cant exactly ride your bike to work everyday if you live that far away. And with the housing market the way it is you cant just say "well they should move" because a house is a big investment, and appartments are expensive, especially if you already have house payments for a house you no longer live in.This is not at all what I am saying. Do you not understand that we need gas to function as a society? A lot of times it's not a choice. When you can alter your schedule to ride a bus or bike that's great but America, more than any other country on the planet, needs gas to function on a day to day basis. We need an alternative eg hydrogen. When people say "we need to move away from gas," even people who use gas themselves, they're usually talking about alternatives. Currently there aren't many options.

I've been perfectly clear and specific. My writing skills are superb. If you are missing something, you have a problem with comprehension.



You're being stupid or dishonest. Or both. It was an independent statement when you said "we need to move away from gas" too. You said it again in this post, but will likely be pretending you didn't say it tomorrow - again. I even pointed you to the post where you said it. Stop trying to change the subject.


Of course you have options. I could be living an oil free life by the end of the month. I'd move to a home within a few miles of where I work and ride a bicycle or walk. Electricity is only an option. Candles provide light, solar panels provide heat.

Did you pull that out of your ass or actually read that somewhere? Source please.

Even if it is true, there's a solution - move.

Choices, choices, choices. If someone is willing to go to any length necessary, they can find a way to live without using oil directly or indirectly.

Of course I do - have you been reading this forum? That is why I've been arguing for drilling for more of it ourselves and against penalizing the industries we rely on to extract it. It is you who keeps saying we need to move away from using it.

No, what they are talking about is the fact they are sheep with opinions. Sheep with opinions are still sheep. They expect someone else to lead the way and tell them what to do, all while making an ass of themself in pretending they are invested in the larger plan.

Theodore Kaczynski was a murderous moonbat, a dangerous nut, but I have far more respect for him than I do you because he "put his money where his mouth is." He didn't just talk a good game, he played it.


You either consume oil or you don't. If you like consuming oil, and you do - you ride vehicles that burn it, you shouldn't be calling for others not to use it.

Meanwhile, I'll keep driving my car as much as I wish. Go buy a hydrogen fueled car, and if you can't afford it, save your pennies and ride a bike, or stfu.

No I'm saying that these were two different topics. The first was an aside and in your post you acted like I was using it as a defence for my second statement. Lets bring this down to your reading level.

1) When people say "I don't drive so I dont't care about gas prices; it can be $100/gallon for all I care" I would respond "well gas prices still effect you indirectly and it can be bad for the economy." This isn't even an argument people make it's just a funny little statement you hear people say. When a group of people are talking about how high gas prices are there's usually one person that will say "well I feel sorry for you I don't have to drive." It's usually said seriously but with a humerous overtone. I don't see why I'm having to spell this out for you. Everything to you is a debate you never find humour or neutral topics in anything you read.

2) I think we, as in the country, needs to switch to something other than gas. This is just an opinion.You have to be practical about it. For most people it's just not feasible. Even if in many cases people can switch from gasoline usually it's too big of a hassle. Moving requires a lot of time and money, time that many people dont have and money that many people don't have.Actually I quote The End of Suburbia. It's like a 2004 documentary about peak oil (watched it online).This is just a diversion, a change of topic. I'm saying that we cant just up and quite using gas as easily as you're making it out to be ("well, just move, ride your bike...choices, choices, choices"). It's not that easy.Well this might be true but it doesn't change what I'm saying. I understand that it's a choice; I am disagreeing with you here. But you seem to act like anybody can just up and quite using gas and it's not that simple. People need to speak out to get the government to pay attention so we can fix it. It's not something one person can do individually. In order to use hydrogen for example we need hydrogen fuel pumps put up everywhere. It's a NATIONAL issue. There's nothing wrong with complaining about it even if you do very little yourself. And even if you think it is this is just an opinion, nothing more, and has no relevance to anything else we've been talking about.

according to a report i heard on npr today, china is becoming the biggest consumer of oil and the biggest polluter.

but, it is with cement, concrete, they build a city, the size of LA, every year.

and that takes a lot of fuel.

good and bad at the same time

Oh? Maybe they should be raised and lowered at the same time then?

Hahaha lol.