It's my thread, and you can go off in any direction that you'd like.

I can't stand those kind of people. Even if thing's are obvious for them, how can they think that the same stuff is obvious for others. Why can't they understand that those guides aren't for them. But for others who actually need them.

I think it's a great thing that Ubuntu is catering better to people who are less comfortable with the technology. My complaints are more that it's largely geared to the starting from scratch newbie, rather than including guides that serve the audience that's already learned a little and just needs some incremental prodding in the right direction.

My big beef with Windows is that many applications are hampered by newbie-friendly menus and tedious wizards that once you've done something once or twice get in the way. Serving the inexperienced audience shouldn't ignore the needs of intermediate and experienced audience.

I'd love more documents that stress concepts over screenshots and mouse click instructions. I don't want to take anything away from the people that need that kind of detailed and graphic help.

I find that the forums fill that role pretty well. At least they do for me, YMMV.

Agreed. Though I was intimately familiar with Windows, I was pretty lost with the inner workings of Ubuntu, and Linux in general, until I spent many hours searching questions I had on the forums. Pretty complete, and when I was stuck, and had to ask a question, help was prompt and professional.

The forum staff over there are real heroes in my book, for the time and dedication they offer to the masses.

They absolutely do fill that indispensable role. There I times where I wish the knowledge was etched in more permanent documentation that didn't require quite as much digging. This wish is particularly true when a thread has useful information spread throughout a few hundred posts, not just at the top. I know most people are good about keeping the first post updated, but it's asking a lot sometimes.

Yeah, I'm picking nits, because Ubuntu is by far the best distro (and OS) for available information and support.

Well, you have a point. Sometimes those threads get really long---especially the really popular ones. But I've always been able to find what I need, though sometimes I have had to dig around for a while.

That's certainly the direction Ubuntu is choosing to head. I think we all know that with any kind of technology there are hobbyists and users. The early adopters are usually hobbyists, who are excited by the technology and want to play with it, etc.

The users are the mass adopters, the ones who buy, pay for, and typically don't screw with, the technology.

Ubuntu is leaning more towards being user-friendly, rather than friendly for the hobbyist market, and that's where a lot of these feelings come from.

For what it's worth I've never found the jem report to be worth reading.

My basic point about all this is that the needs of "regular users" vs. hobbyists/geeks need not be mutually exclusive.

I'd love to see (for once) newbies having a smooth path to achieving expertise, if that's what they want. Experts were newbies at one point, but had to do a lot of suffering and patient digging to get where they are. It shouldn't have to be that way.

I'd also love to see experienced users get more support, beyond what they manage to give each other. Just because we _can_ solve a problem the hard way doesn't mean we always want to, or can afford to.

More resources like cheat sheets, sample working configurations, troubleshooting guides, etc. would be wonderful. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places.

Personally, I'm fine with the system as it is. Not everyone is going to want to understand their operating system. So, I don't see the 'smooth path' as necessary.

As for more advanced users fixing problems, the early adopter crowd will always move to something else. The great thing about "Linux" is that there are more than enough distributions to keep everyone happy. Want to tinker? Go use Gentoo and Slackware. Need something for the kids? Maybe they'll like edubuntu. You get the idea.

I would have to disagree with that Rasczak. I think the average cult member is there because he/she is weak and easily led. A hobby or an elite group can be very territorial but a cult is predatory.
To me, Ubuntu is just another Linux distribution which gives us yet another choice and one that makes the migration from Windows a little easier. It's the 'easier' part that has the elite so upset. But if the elite wants to think of me as a moron then that's OK and probably true since I have to keep a text document full of Linux commands that I refer to from time to time and I use Synaptic to install programs rather than command line. Although I did use the terminal to install Firefox 2.0 and my printer driver but I had to follow the instructions for both. I'm sure the elite would scoff at such incompetence.

If you think that, then I believe you fail to understand human nature. People are in cults because they see something of value there. People don't do self-destructive things intentionally, they do the things that they think will bring them reward.

I think he meant the term weak in correlation with brain washing.

If being saved or guided is the value you're talking about then I guess you're correct. But in reality the only thing of value in a cult or a religion is the leader's point of view. They establish your thinking and your behavior, what is right and what is wrong. I feel it is the weak that needs someone to determine these things for them. If I choose to smoke a pipe, I do so knowing that it's self destructive. If I join a cult that says pipe smoking is wrong then I give up pipe smoking but I do so because I have let it be determined for me. As bns said;

"We all want to be "special." So we do something that's unusual. Pipe-smoking or linux or whatever"

While taking up either of these you're certainly joining a community but ultimately you've made the decision for yourself which is why I say that this different from joining a cult since what you do in a cult is done to the satisfaction of the cult leader who will tell that you're a better person for it but it takes a weak person to believe this. The tech writers who call me a moron because I'm not using Linux in a manner that satisfies them are irrelevant to me because this is not a cult and they're not my leaders.

I didn't say that I see value in it. I said the followers do. Just dismissing them as 'weak' is ignoring the entire mechanism that goes on. As an outsider, I see them being led around like sheep just like you said. But then, I think 95% of the population is being led around by mainstream groups rather than crazies. What's the difference? I claim the difference is only in the intent of the leader.
I certainly see that the two communities are very different. But I'm suggesting that the psychological reason for joining the group is similar, though the resulting groups are as different as they can be.

I think we're really saying the same thing. You're saying they see value and I agree with that but it's what has to be surrendered to a cult rather than a community or a club where I see a difference.