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Originally Posted by Jasper84 Your list of 'collectivists do this/that' might be true for pure collectivism, but its use seems to be used falsely as arguments against the non-pure version. Surely you believe in some collectivism, things like infrastructure, rule of law?
Also, some of them put words in other peoples mouth. |
State monopoly on infrastructure, law, and other areas of common public interest may be expedient, but it's certainly not the only possible way to achieve desirable results and certainly not the most efficient.
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Originally Posted by Jasper84 By whom are rights granted in any case? Does the universe itself somehow contain rights then? No, humans have themselves decided that other people have rights in some cases. That leftists think people have the right to food, education, healthcare or pensions, does not mean that it is suddenly 'granted by state'.
The more real difference is that these rights are demanding, rather then passive, like the right not being stolen from. (Although, perhaps all rights are demanding; it costs police to prevent crime like stealing.) |
They're his words, so I'll refer back to his writing for the full explanation. I pointed it out earlier, but I'll point it out again. I shortened many of those points, so they are out of context to varying degrees.
"1. THE ORIGIN AND NATURE OF HUMAN RIGHTS
The first of these has to do with the nature of human rights. Collectivists and individualists both agree that human rights are important, but they differ over how important compared to other values and especially over the origin of those rights.
Rights are not tangible entities that can be viewed or measured. They are abstract concepts held in the human mind. They are whatever men agree they are at a given time and place. Their nature has changed with the evolution of civilization. Today, they vary widely from culture to culture. One culture may accept that rights are granted by rulers who derive authority from God. Another culture may claim that rights are granted by God directly to the people. In other cultures, rights are perceived as a claim to the material possessions of others. People living in tribal or military dictatorships don’t spend much time even thinking about rights because they have no expectation of ever having them. Some primitive cultures don’t even have a word for rights.
Because of the great diversity in the concept of human rights, they cannot be defined to everyone’s satisfaction. However, that does not mean they cannot be defined to our satisfaction. We do not have to insist that those in other cultures agree with us; but, if we wish to live in a culture to our liking, one in which we have the optimum amount of personal freedom, then we must be serious about a preferred definition of human rights. If we have no concept of what rights should be, then it is likely we will live under a definition not to our liking.
The first thing to understand as we work toward a useful definition of rights is that their source determines their nature. This will be covered in greater detail further along, but the concept needs to be stated here. If we can agree on the source of rights, then we will have little difficulty agreeing on their nature. For example, if a security guard is hired by a gated community to protect the property of its residents, the nature of the guard’s activity must be limited to the activities that the residents themselves are entitled to perform. That means the guard may patrol the community and, if necessary, physically deter burglaries and crimes of aggressive violence. But the guard is not authorized to compel the residents to send their children to bed by 10 PM or donate to the Red Cross. Why not? Because the residents are the source of the authority; the nature of the authority cannot include any act that is denied to the source; and the residents have no right to compel their neighbors in these matters.
RIGHTS ARE BORN ON THE BATTLEFIELD
In societies that have been sheltered for many generations from war and revolution, it is easy to forget that rights are derived from military power. That is their ultimate source. Initially, rights must be earned on the battlefield. They may be handed to the next generation as a gift, but they always are purchased on the battlefield. The Bill of Rights of the United States Constitution is a classic example. The men who drafted that document were able to do so only because they represented the colonists who defeated the armies of Great Britain. Had they lost the War of Independence, they would have had no opportunity to write a Bill of Rights or anything else except letters of farewell before their execution.
Unfortunately, Mao Zedong was right when he said that political power grows from the barrel of a gun. He could just as well have said rights. A man may declare that he has a right to do such and such derived from law or from a constitution or even from God; but, in the presence of an enemy or a criminal or a tyrant with a gun to his head, he has no power to exercise his proclaimed right. Rights are always based on power. If we lose our ability or willingness to physically defend our rights, we will lose them.
Now we come to the chasm between collectivists and individualists. If rights are earned on the battlefield, we may assume they belong to the winners, but who are they? Do governments win wars or do the people? If governments win wars and people merely serve them as in medieval times, then governments hold the rights and are entitled to grant or deny them to the people. On the other hand, if people win wars and governments merely serve them in this matter, then the people hold rights and are entitled to grant or deny them to governments. If our task is to define rights as we think they should be in a free society, we must choose between these two concepts. Individualists choose the concept that rights come from the people and governments are the servants. Collectivists choose the concept that rights come from governments and people are the servants. Individualists are nervous about that assumption because, if the state has the power to grant rights, it also has the power to take them away, and that concept is incompatible with personal liberty. The view of individualism was expressed clearly in the United States Declaration of Independence, which says:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights; that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among men….
Nothing could be clearer than that. The dictionary tells us that inalienable (spelled differently in colonial times) means “not to be transferred to another.” The assumption is that rights are the innate possession of the people. The purpose of government is, not to grant rights, but to secure them and protect them. By contrast, all collectivist political systems embrace the opposite view that rights are granted by the state. That includes the Nazis, Fascists, and Communists. It is also a tenet of the United Nations. Article Four of the UN Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights says:
The States Parties to the present Covenant recognize that, in the enjoyment of those rights provided by the State … the State may subject such rights only to such limitations as are determined by law.
I repeat: If we accept that the state has the power to grant rights, then we must also agree it has the power to take them away. Notice the wording of the UN Covenant. After proclaiming that rights are provided by the state, it then says that those rights may be subject to limitations “as are determined by law.” In other words, the collectivists at the UN presume to grant us our rights and, when they are ready to take them away, all they have to do is pass a law authorizing it.
Compare that with the Bill of Rights in the United States Constitution. It says Congress shall make no law restricting the rights of freedom of speech, or religion, peaceful assembly, the right to bear arms, and so forth – not except as determined by law, but no law. The Constitution embodies the ethic of individualism. The UN embodies the ethic of collectivism, and what a difference that makes."
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Originally Posted by Jasper84 Or that the group must take care people get those rights i talked about.
Collectivism does move around resources; and into more charitable hands. I guess it is stealing, haha. (Ye, sure there was more charity in early 20th certury, because they were afraid of the working class..)
I wish that people would just be charitable enough to do this automatically, but they are not. A lot of resources are in bastards(Who are at an advantage in earning money.) and corporations. Corporations couldnt even be charitable if they wanted; the shareholders would mind.
The people doing the lower-educated work shouldnt have to work so the rich can have their, million dollar pissing contests. |
While you can find examples of that type of behavior in the Robber-Barons, who were not individualists by any stretch, or capitalists, for that matter, but the statement does not hold true as a broad generalization.
Corporations are legal entities that don't fit into the model of capitalism. They are socialism in action. Public owned and basically unaccountable.
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Originally Posted by Jasper84 Wtf is this about? We are afraid of the freedom of the rich to slave away workers. Workers who have to work for a living; who are hence not free. Lack of freedom is a fact of life in any case, some collectivism actually increases freedom. |
You're forgeting an important fact. You choose where you work, when you work, how you work, etc.
Collectivists want you to believe that people have no choice in how they live. That is patently false. If a person is free to choose, and they choose poorly, it is their personal responsibility. Insulating people from the consequences of their own actions is not the proper role of government, and only serves to encourage irresponsible behavior, in general.
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Originally Posted by Jasper84 ...That is why we are for accessible education. |
As long as it produces good drones for the state, right?
THE UNDERGROUND HISTORY OF AMERICAN EDUCATION - by John Taylor Gatto Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasper84 There ought to be a law to prevent people from doing that! |
