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Originally Posted by Bnonn  I quite agree that faith is simply belief—a justified and true belief. I was not intimating that it was more than that. However, regardless of your interpretation of Ephesians 2:8, the fact remains that the natural man cannot understand the things of God because he does not have the spirit of God (see my post above). Therefore, God must incline himself toward us before we can incline ourselves toward him. To suppose otherwise is to ignore God's total sovereignty over all that happens. If you believe in libertarian free will I would invite you to consider my article 'Annotating The Catholic Encyclopedia: Free Will'. If you feel you are able to offer refutations, I think it would be more appropriate to respond there, or to create a new thread. I am happy to continue this conversation on these forums, but since we appear to agree on the basic nature of biblical faith, I don't think we should get off topic in here. |
Yes, I have mostly agreed with you so far and that has been refreshing. It is very rare I agree with others theology in any area. I will read your article and post my thoughts there, if required. Thx!
In bold and underlined above is what I am addressing now.....
God has always inclined himself toward man. We all have existed in an environment of faith in regards to God. You say the natural man can not understand the things of God because he does not have the Spirit of God, but the scripture you are referring to is about the spirit of man understanding God. Adam was not born again. He had a spirit, not the Spirit. There's many passages that show mans spirit, alive and well, functioning with God. A man focused on the carnal won't hear or see and is blind. A man focused on the spiritual can and will. God's sovereign will is that none persish but that all come to everlasting life. Since most do perish, his will is not being done. Why is that? Few men are spiritually minded, most are carnal, but all are created in his image with a spirit that is eternal that is intended to have fellowship with him.
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Mat 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the laborers are few;
Mat 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest.
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There's the Lord of the harvest standing over the harvest and seeing the need, seeing ripe fruit that is about to fall off the tree and rot, and what did he do? Turned to the disciples and said "this is your responsibility, if you do not pray and you do not go and harvest the field, the fruit will perish". So exactly why do people go to hell? Why do some people never hear the gospel? If we hold to reformed theology we say, "God will raise someone up, if I don't pray and I don't go someone else will because it is God's will that certain people will be saved". But does that sound like what Jesus just said? Not at all. Does it fit any scripture at all to compelling, convincing, persuading men concerning Jesus? What nut is going to put their life on the line and take up their cross and follow Jesus if some of the lost are saved according to God's will alone without the obedience of men praying and going and harvesting? Reformers do not understand the authority and dominion given to man.
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Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
Heb 2:4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Heb 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
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Luk 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
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People like taking what Jesus said there completely out of context but he's responding to the disciples statement that the devils are subject to them. He sent the seventy out 2 by 2 and gave them the authority that was given him as the second Adam victorious over sin the devil the flesh and this world that the first Adam lost. People think the cross gave Jesus the right to rule and reign but he was given all power and authority before the cross. The cross, burial, resurrection, ascension, and seating was for us to partake in that same restoration to what the first Adam lost. It was God's way of making permanent what he gave the seventy temporarily. The seventy exercised the dominion and authority man had not had since the fall of Adam and Jesus was sitting somewhere in prayer looked up and saw Satan the accuser of the brethren, who was continually before the throne of God, get kicked out of heaven by the dominion and authority of man on earth. I'm not saying this is the permanent kicking out of Satan, but it is what the bible says.
Reformed theology focuses on the cross and stays at the cross when we are both way past it and way before it. If it is God's will that none perish but we know many do perish, is God not having his will accomplished? Is God handicapped? Is God limited? Is he limited to the prayers of men, whom he has given all dominion power and authority? God has chosen to operate within parameters he has set forth that prevent him from forcibly accomplishing his will that non perish because we know many will perish. If a sovereign God has a will, and that will does not get done, then that sovereign God has sovereignly designed a system wherein he has limited himself. The only way a sovereign God can have a will and that will not get done is that he has placed that will in the hands of another, and someone else has failed.
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Mat 9:36 But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.
Mat 9:37 Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the laborers are few;
Mat 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest.
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It looks like he put the disciples in charge of the harvest. It looks like he said that field is yours as man with all power and dominion in the earth, go harvest the fruit. Now if you don't have enough resources come and ask me and I'll send more laborers. If you still don't have enough come and ask and I'll send more laborers, but I am delegating this harvest into your hands, I am out of the picture, except if you need assistance you let me know.