Quote:
Originally Posted by Churble
Highly complicated compared to exactly what? We say that a watch is highly complicated compared to a sand clock. So, the Universe is highly complicated compared to what exactly (we obviously have to compare it to similar things)? And, why can't the Universe be even more organized and complicated than it currently is? What if we're living in an extremely simple Universe out of all the trillions and trillions of possibilities?
Your "highly-complicated" argument is useless since we can't currently compare the Universe to any other things of similar characteristics or dimensions.
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That was going to be my response.
In additionm I'd like to point out that what I was saying was basically that we look at the level of order achieved by matter and say that it is complex. Assume that these "decisions" that are made by a universe not governed by a designer, these probabilities that are eventually chosen all had to be made. If a choice was made between probabilities it means that there were several outcomes and one of them was chosen, and which one was based on these probabilities (or improbabilities, in some cases, to play a bit with wording). We assume that after 15billion years of these decisions that the outcome is "complex" and "improbable". This is true-- we are improbable as we are simply one possibility of one possibility of one possibility, etc. However, we have no sense that had any of these situations changed the "decision" that the outcome would be any more probable than our current situation. 15 billion years of time, many orders of magnitude higher amounts of energy and matter that are practical infinite in the universe, only so many ways that matter can interact, some of that matter forms galaxy which consists of stars, of which some have planets from left over material, of which some are contained in a zone which provides a reasonable amount of energy for chemical reactions to occur, on which some of these planets the materials are there for reactions to occur, on which some of these planets these reactions involved carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and hydrogen, on which some of those something "organic" was created, on which some of those life formed, on which some of those life could be sustained...
If that all seems all that improbable to you in our vast universe-- well you're simply wrong. Because the chance of that happening in a universe is exactly 1. It did happen, we do exist, as do the planets, sun, other stars, other solar systems with planets, in galaxies, in clusters, in a universe. The chances of this happening again somewhere I think are quite high even for the skeptic if you understand htat with each step made towards life you're more and more likely to have conditions for life develop. As soon as a star was born, containing the vast amounts of energy into a "small" area leaving some places to cool off in between it was more likely there would be life. When some of these stars had material left over from their formation that did not get pulled in and was circling these stars as proto-planetary discs, there was a greater chance for life. When planets aggregated from this matter circling stars, there was a greater chance for life. When these planets were bombarded with an incredible array of different elements produced from stars that had exploded, life was more likely, etc etc.
And these events, we now have proof, happened in multiple places throughout the galaxy, not just the universe. Practically everywhere we look we are finding extra solar planets...
The sense of exceptionalism people have is amazing when you DO look at how big and vast and complex the universe is-- to realize that these decisions that led to life were made billions of times over billions of years. This outcome was bound to come up somewhere, at some point. And, just the fact that it did leads me to believe that it is just as likely that it would come up somewhere else. We're not that unique if you're willing to pull your head out of religion which teaches that we alone are God's people.
There is a whole universe out there, all of which is God's. It's not our fault that when the writers of scripture were around they did not understand just how big, how beautiful, how complex, and how marvelous creation is that they felt hte need to make themselves exceptional and the Earth exceptional. That was all they knew and all they could understand. We're not needed to make hte universe exceptional and the glory of creation marvelous-- there is a whole universe that attests to that far better than we can.
When people can conclude this, they're in a much better place, IMO, to praise God.