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PartisanEntity · 05-11-2007

Hello everyone,

An interesting topic, however I find myself disagreeing with what I feel is a rather simplified comparison. The thread starter claims that 'Western' culture is 'based' on the rule of law, and that 'Middle Eastern' culture is based on shame and honour.

As a European (born and raised here) of Arab roots, as someone with one foot in either 'cultural world' I must say that I cannot accept this comparison. I understand that this is matthews personal observation and I accept it as such, but I would like to add some points which must be mentioned.

First of all, the cultures of European states for example, are not based on the rule of law. The rule of law may play a role in the culture, but the culture does not find it's origin in the rule of law, nor is the rule of law the driving force that shapes the culture. Culture is also too broad a term to be defined merely by the rule of law; what of music, the arts, social norms and behavioural traits and customs? Is all this defined merely by what is right and what is wrong in the West and by shame and honour in the Middle East? Definately not.

Shame and honour in Europe play a large role too, although granted perhaps not on the same level as in the Middle East. Here they are called 'prestige' and 'scandal'. Many people pretend to be/or are, rich, cool, educated or powerful. They do this in order to impress their peers and gain respect, why else would you buy a sports car, a large mansion or go to places where you can be seen and admired?. Scandal (by most) is avoided where possible and this is the equivalent of shame. People here in Europe are equally impressed by the extremes (the extremely rich, the extremely powerful, the famous) this is the same as your observation of the Middle East where respect is gained through perhaps being rich, powerful etc...

Another extremely important fact that must be mentioned is as follows: the Middle East is dominated by dictatorships today, these weaken their own legal systems and rules of law by being corrupt. In just about all these dictatorships you can get almost all legal issues 'solved' through bribery, hence the respect towards the law is diminished since not even the governing bodies will respect it.

Anyone who has studied the history of the Middle East will notice that it was not always like this. At certain points throughout history, especially during the golden period of Islamic rule (the hight of laws, science, medecine, architecture. The seed of the European renaissance), laws played a much larger role in daily life and 'culture'.

Finally, perhaps you have overlooked that in the Middle East, which is dominated by the Islamic faith, the idea of what is right and what is wrong plays an equally if not larger role compared to Europe and the West. Perhaps the role of right and wrong is greater in the Middle East where people are more religious? So there needs to be a clarification concerning the level at which one is viewing a society. There are many levels and facets.

What I am trying to say is that one must realise that an observation may rest on the tiny window available to us based on the milieu we find ourself in when in another country.

Regards

PE.

05-11-2007	#10 (permalink)
PartisanEntity Be gentle, newcomer Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1	Re: Honor and Shame Hello everyone, An interesting topic, however I find myself disagreeing with what I feel is a rather simplified comparison. The thread starter claims that 'Western' culture is 'based' on the rule of law, and that 'Middle Eastern' culture is based on shame and honour. As a European (born and raised here) of Arab roots, as someone with one foot in either 'cultural world' I must say that I cannot accept this comparison. I understand that this is matthews personal observation and I accept it as such, but I would like to add some points which must be mentioned. First of all, the cultures of European states for example, are not based on the rule of law. The rule of law may play a role in the culture, but the culture does not find it's origin in the rule of law, nor is the rule of law the driving force that shapes the culture. Culture is also too broad a term to be defined merely by the rule of law; what of music, the arts, social norms and behavioural traits and customs? Is all this defined merely by what is right and what is wrong in the West and by shame and honour in the Middle East? Definately not. Shame and honour in Europe play a large role too, although granted perhaps not on the same level as in the Middle East. Here they are called 'prestige' and 'scandal'. Many people pretend to be/or are, rich, cool, educated or powerful. They do this in order to impress their peers and gain respect, why else would you buy a sports car, a large mansion or go to places where you can be seen and admired?. Scandal (by most) is avoided where possible and this is the equivalent of shame. People here in Europe are equally impressed by the extremes (the extremely rich, the extremely powerful, the famous) this is the same as your observation of the Middle East where respect is gained through perhaps being rich, powerful etc... Another extremely important fact that must be mentioned is as follows: the Middle East is dominated by dictatorships today, these weaken their own legal systems and rules of law by being corrupt. In just about all these dictatorships you can get almost all legal issues 'solved' through bribery, hence the respect towards the law is diminished since not even the governing bodies will respect it. Anyone who has studied the history of the Middle East will notice that it was not always like this. At certain points throughout history, especially during the golden period of Islamic rule (the hight of laws, science, medecine, architecture. The seed of the European renaissance), laws played a much larger role in daily life and 'culture'. Finally, perhaps you have overlooked that in the Middle East, which is dominated by the Islamic faith, the idea of what is right and what is wrong plays an equally if not larger role compared to Europe and the West. Perhaps the role of right and wrong is greater in the Middle East where people are more religious? So there needs to be a clarification concerning the level at which one is viewing a society. There are many levels and facets. What I am trying to say is that one must realise that an observation may rest on the tiny window available to us based on the milieu we find ourself in when in another country. Regards PE.